Welcome admin !

It is currently Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:41 pm
Pathway:  Board index Resources Zen Events

Zen Book Club`

Share and list upcoming or annual events.

Zen Book Club`

Postby Carol on Tue May 30, 2017 2:33 am

Some may be interested

Zen Book Club

Read monthly book selections then engage with teachers and translat ors Steve Hagen, David Loy, and Red Pine
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
User avatar
Carol
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 10326
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:52 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby bokki on Tue May 30, 2017 11:35 am

May i just express my pleasure
of seeing Mrs. Carol
post here again!

and yes i joined the site!
User avatar
bokki
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby Jok_Hae on Wed May 31, 2017 1:21 am

Amazing...just had a conversation about something like this with a Sangha member on Sunday!!

Thanks,
Keith

_/|\_
You make, you get

New Haven Zen Center
User avatar
Jok_Hae
 
Posts: 4082
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:53 am
Location: CT, USA

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby macdougdoug on Wed May 31, 2017 2:10 pm

this month they're reading :

The Diamond Sutra and
The Sutra of Hui-neng
Translated by A.F. Price and Wong Mou-lam

I've joined.
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby ed blanco on Wed May 31, 2017 2:35 pm

Good to see you back Carol.
I'm in and out but mostly ghosting.

A Zen Book Club? Yum!
As if i needed any more half read books on my night stand. One of these days I'm gonna have to finish one of them.
I think the last one I read cover to cover was Red Pine's THE PLATFORM SUTRA; also ZEN BAGGAGE, what a trip that was.
As for commenting on it I'd just embarrass myself. You all go ahead i ghost.
Nice.

:O:
IT SPEAKS IN SILENCE
IN SPEECH YOU HEAR ITS SILENCE

Yongjia Xuanjue
User avatar
ed blanco
 
Posts: 1173
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:49 pm

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby jundo on Wed May 31, 2017 2:41 pm

Thanks!

Old classic English translations by this point, but one can and should turn back again and again.

Gassho, J
Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa
User avatar
jundo
Teacher
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:47 am

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed May 31, 2017 10:26 pm

macdougdoug wrote:this month they're reading :

The Sutra of Hui-neng
Translated by A.F. Price and Wong Mou-lam

I really like that translation, from Goddard's A BUDDHIST BIBLE. Straight, direct, and unvarnished, and seems very literal.

Once I copied just that sutra (Sutra of Hui-neng) onto Xerox paper from my copy of Goddard's generously thick book, trimmed it to size, and bound it with staples, so that just the sutra itself could be easily carried around and read, consulted, etc. I carried it to the first Ch'an 7-day retreat I attended, but of course did not have even a moment to read it! Still, having it along among the very few things brought to the retreat was something of a comfort, and a commitment. Coincidentally, that 7-day retreat ended on May 31, which is today: it ran May 24-31. That was in 1979, 38 years ago. The late Ven. Sheng Yen was the teacher. This was one of the famous Ch'an retreats at Bodhi House, on Long Island, NY, USA.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6443
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby jundo on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:59 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
macdougdoug wrote:this month they're reading :

The Sutra of Hui-neng
Translated by A.F. Price and Wong Mou-lam

I really like that translation, from Goddard's A BUDDHIST BIBLE. Straight, direct, and unvarnished, and seems very literal.

Once I copied just that sutra (Sutra of Hui-neng) onto Xerox paper from my copy of Goddard's generously thick book, trimmed it to size, and bound it with staples, so that just the sutra itself could be easily carried around and read, consulted, etc. I carried it to the first Ch'an 7-day retreat I attended, but of course did not have even a moment to read it! Still, having it along among the very few things brought to the retreat was something of a comfort, and a commitment.


Of course, it means something to you, and resonates with you, which is most important for you.

Dwight Goddard's "Buddhist Bible" is a beautiful book, and perhaps the first large-scale attempt to translate a variety of Sutra into English. However, I believe that most of those translations were done in the 1920's, can be pretty rough or just plain off meaning at times (Mr. Goddard was an engineer who had lived for years in China, but with rather limited in his knowledge of the source languages), and were by a translator who was making a conscious effort to use the style of the Old Testament Bible in his presentation. So, it should be approached with some understanding of that, and there are much more artful translations of most of the Sutras it contains that were done later. His cooperation with DT Suzuki did not help much. However, it is still a very lovely book if it speaks to you.

Even the Price translation of the Platform Sutra is not without its problems. and is a later version much more flowery than the earlier, simpler Dunhuang version (I recommend the Yampolsky translation, with the wonderful Introduction to the history of the whole thing by the Translator).

Gassho, J

SatToday
Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa
User avatar
jundo
Teacher
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:47 am

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby macdougdoug on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:37 am

I've also got an old (1956?) copy of "A Buddhist Bible" inherited from my dad. Unfortunately I always have trouble concentrating when reading the Diamond Sutra, much prefering the Hui Neng Sutra (aka Wei Lang for some reason) which is a rip roaring read from end to end (especially his "autobiography").

Looking forward to reading these newer versions and hearing what other folks have to say about them.
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:24 pm

Thanks, Jundo. Quite right, I'd say too that the translations in Goddard's classic A BUDDHIST BIBLE might be susceptible of some improvement these days (and already have been improved on, elsewhere): the book dates to 1932, and so the translations are obviously earlier.

This of course pre-dates Suzuki's popularizations (ESSAYS... ) by a decade or two, and hence also pre-dates many teachers coming to English-speaking countries. So, not many English-speaking people had ever practiced, yet, in Goddard's time, including some of the translators, and so their translations on some points could (can.. ) indeed be "off", and not just on technical points, either. That is, something of the spirit of the text could in some cases have been missed. And other things.

Nonetheless, since the topic is the Sutra of Huineng, yes, I still find it clear, direct, and literal-seeming. It stands with any English translation made since.

I suspect that the translator, Wong Mou-Lam, was not inexperienced in spiritual practice (maybe Vajrayana). But it's also good that he does not make a show of that, but just produces a clear, clean translation. Yes, this, as you say, is what "means something to me, resonates, and is important". Kudos!, Wong Mou-Lam xiānshēng. And Goddard.

It is primarily for Wong Mou-Lam's translation of Huineng's Sutra that I continue to value the fine and historic Goddard book.

One has to admit too that the book has in general been a blockbuster, and highly influential. Since 1932! Eighty-five years. And continuously in-print for ...those 85 years (as far as I can determine). Phew... . Quite a record. Older than most of us. Maybe some of its popularity, by now, comes, indeed, from what we can in our time perceive (ascribe... ) to be the quaintness of some of the translations, and, as noted, an emulation of style prevalent in popular and entrenched translations from scriptures of Middle Eastern religions.

Although I "cut the translators slack" for being very much "of their time", nonetheless I still pick bones with some of the oldest translators (200-250 years ago) who foisted English words upon the spiritual lexicon that are not quite fitting (or off by a lot). Theosophists also embraced certain translations and unfortunately popularized them further.

I've written about this here, and two threads on these points are still active and current at ZFI. To illuminate or replace words which I identify as errant (which will go unmentioned now), I have suggested in the one case, "Undarkening"; and, in the other, "Mindedness".

_/\_ ,

--Joe

jundo wrote:Of course, it means something to you, and resonates with you, which is most important for you.

Dwight Goddard's "Buddhist Bible" is a beautiful book, and perhaps the first large-scale attempt to translate a variety of Sutra into English. However, I believe that most of those translations were done in the 1920's, can be pretty rough or just plain off meaning at times (Mr. Goddard was an engineer who had lived for years in China, but with rather limited in his knowledge of the source languages),
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6443
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:48 pm

Doug,

macdougdoug wrote:I've also got an old (1956?) copy of "A Buddhist Bible" inherited from my dad. Unfortunately I always have trouble concentrating when reading the Diamond Sutra, much prefering the Hui Neng Sutra (aka Wei Lang for some reason) which is a rip roaring read from end to end (especially his "autobiography").

Again, yes, it's the only Chinese source in the entire Buddhist canon.

--Joe

p.s. The 6th Patriarch had different names, pronounced about the same, and differing in transliteration to English. For example, "Hui" sounds like "Wei", when pronounced correctly. Oh, and "Neng" sounds as "nung". The "Lang", I think, is actually something different. I think Guo Gu could shed light on this. ;) Of course in Japanese, Huineng is "Eno".
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6443
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:00 pm

Jundo,

jundo wrote:(I recommend the Yampolsky translation, with the wonderful Introduction to the history of the whole thing by the Translator).

It's a great gift, which keeps giving. I knew Professor Yampolsky at Columbia (and many others in the Department) in the early and mid-1970s. And the East Asian Library in Kent Hall was a great resource for me before and while I was coming to Ch'an practice with Shihfu Sheng Yen.

My friend Dan Stevenson was Yampolsky's student and PhD advisor while Dan took the PhD in Buddhist Studies at Columbia (and Union Theological Sem.), and it was Dan who first introduced me to Sheng Yen, in 1979. Small and wonderful world. Dan is Department Chair of Religious Studies at Kansas University, and is still a specialist in Chan studies. I think Guo Gu knows Dan, too, although Guo Gu might be too young to have known him for long while we were all still students of Sheng Yen together.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6443
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby macdougdoug on Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:29 am

Great abbreviated version of the Diamond Sutra here :

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1gzUDYNCD67YphOAI8HpsxO6T0NoiHe3IUKC29sSxNN0%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&h=ATO6MmU2l8TBuw-q6rwm0l2bBE9CTVTx8IAuvR_sXUZMydytm-17U5bGtpxc-QbJKpWosKdK59ndgTw7ICOpCDBZ7m_bV-MI973a5F6FB5MTkSQXOL35jg6LuJW8317nCCCUMZVT7g

Good thing too! I never managed to understand what the original version was trying to say.

The diamond sutra was the book for March - This month they're reading huang po. Not much discussion yet on their Facebook page, the book club is still in its infancy methinks.
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Zen Book Club`

Postby macdougdoug on Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:33 pm

User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France


Return to Zen Events

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 1 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest