Welcome admin !

It is currently Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:07 pm
Pathway:  Board index Resources Zen Events

silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Share and list upcoming or annual events.

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:17 pm

well yes, yet, in my experience, it is the rare jewel that carries the eye of wisdom that wide. guidance is always helpful tho.
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3652
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Chrisd on Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:02 pm

Anirukta wrote:Regarding the energy, you use your own. Step by step -- you walk, and no one else will be moving your feet but your own willful effort. No one majestically transfers you through the barriers on their shoulders.


You are deeply influenced by other people. There is no escaping it. Your own willful effort is wonderful and necessary surely, but it's not all.

I guess the rational part is in the explanation of the seeing of the teacher. The teacher may notice the tone of the voice, a slight step wrong, a tilting of the head. A combination of those. The observing of this will produce a conclusion in the head of the teacher and he/she will try to explain it to the student so that the student may understand it.

The problem of communication though is like parent-child. The child is pouting and angry > the parent intuitively sees there is something off. The child won't quite be able to explain it (yet be completely convinced he/she is doing so :lol2: ) and the parent sees he/she will have to deduce. He/she will ask questions. The parent will then attempt a helpful explanation. This will sometimes be tried in the child’s language and sometimes the parent will push the child to see beyond its own bubble of understanding.

Looks to me like you would project your own understanding of recognition onto the teacher and expect him/her to conform to it. This is like the child not recognizing that there is a reality beyond itself that the parent is aware of but he/she is not. The child expects the parent to talk solely on its own terms. "Very rational" as you say. The parent desires for the child to become aware of the greater reality and sees that this requires for the child to go beyond its terms so he/she attempts to push beyond it. The parent sees the child's actions and reactions not as seperate events to be fixed but as events to be handled with according to the bigger picture.

Finally it’s worth noting is that the mature parent knows that the child/parent relation is purely a temporary function, not something to derive an identity from.

I don't think I disagreed with anything in your post
but hope I might have added something that may be in the smallest of ways useful to you. :Namaste:
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Anders on Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:35 am

Anirukta wrote:
Chrisd wrote:Are you talking about a form of mirroring of the teachers energy that happens student-teacher?

I am talking about recognition of the student's state, where the teacher recognizes things invisible to others (the student including), due to the fact that their "eye of wisdom", so to speak, is open and functioning. What the teacher "sees" allows them to make corrections in the right way, according to this very student's state.

It's very rational, nothing mysterious. The teacher should had been there before you -- there where you are at the moment -- and now is in a better position: firstly as they know where to go next, secondly as they know it due to their directly "seeing" the route (and not in the dark, as the student) -- and "seeing" where the student is.

As when one with the eyes closed has to go through a busy city to reach a certain point. Theoretically, they can find their way. But guided by the one observing their location, who is able to see, and directed as , "turn left", "make 5 steps forward", "turn right" -- the one guided avoids mistakes, and unnecessary roaming.

Regarding the energy, you use your own. Step by step -- you walk, and no one else will be moving your feet but your own willful effort. No one majestically transfers you through the barriers on their shoulders.

Though I have done a little bit of solitary practice, this didn't help much, so this post has to be corrected by those who know better [when they have time to respond].


I don't think it is reducible to just this. As important, if not more, as the teacher observing the student is the student observing the teacher and receiving wordless instructions from how the teacher carries himself and, "mysteriously" :EEK: , being influenced by the energy field of the teacher.

That's something that won't really be comprehensible until you meet an adept with the Dhyana power to exert such impact on fellow practitioners. I first learned about it by sitting at the feet of Ajahn Pannavaddo for a few hours a day in Thailand years ago. His samadhi prowess had a tangible impact on everyone around him - Somehow silence became the appropriate and natural social response around him. Chatterboxes would come to him and start babbling about their views and five minutes later, we'd all just be sitting quietly in informal contemplation. No psychological tricks or anything. His energy field just naturally induced stilness in other people. His glow was so tangible you could almost see it.

But, more importantly than 'helping you along' by riding the tailwind of their samadhi, is how instructional it is to be in such a presence. You pick up very natural and grounded intuitions of how to balance and integrate practise by osmosis, in ways that are hard to convey in spoken or written language.

Also, such adepts tend to have an ability to speak words of Dharma, not necessarily directed at you, that can really imprint themselves on the heart and facilitate deeper change. Not just of the 'wisdom' variety, but simple and practical advice too. Their virtue and samadhi gives real power to their advice.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
Anders
 
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:58 pm

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Chrisd on Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:28 pm

Anders wrote:That's something that won't really be comprehensible until you meet an adept with the Dhyana power to exert such impact on fellow practitioners.


Disagree with you there. Everybody has that influence over other people. Just some people are totally different energy fields and when the difference is strong then it's more obvious. Also I imagine some people are not observant at all, they don't notice anything even when sitting next to a "buddha".

To take it to the extreme :)

Nisargadatta: The entire universe is your Guru. You learn from everything, if you are alert and intelligent. Were your mind clear and your heart clean, you would learn from every passer-by;. It is because you are indolent or restless, that your inner Self manifests as the outer Guru and makes you trust him and obey.

Agree with the rest.
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Chrisd on Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:51 pm

Granted some people develop some stuff that others never do (and are interested in doing). But we basically all influence each other. Just having a fully enlightened teacher is "not enough" in my view. Sangha is as much a part of it.
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Michaeljc on Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:07 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:well yes, yet, in my experience, it is the rare jewel that carries the eye of wisdom that wide. guidance is always helpful tho.


Yup - I agree. I was thinking about this question quite independently a few days back, not having read this topic. I came to the conclusion that a good teacher does not teach. S/he shares.
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3627
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby macdougdoug on Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:31 pm

Group mentality, dominant personalities, charismatics etc got nothing to do with liberation - quite the opposite.

Of course there are those that have seen the light - but even for them having dependant worshipful disciples is a dangerous game.
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:02 am

Michaeljc wrote:
Linda Anderson wrote:well yes, yet, in my experience, it is the rare jewel that carries the eye of wisdom that wide. guidance is always helpful tho.


Yup - I agree. I was thinking about this question quite independently a few days back, not having read this topic. I came to the conclusion that a good teacher does not teach. S/he shares.


yup, S/he shares. agree

When we frame it that way, all anyone can do is share naturally without pretense... if we do that, it may or may not include specifics of knowledge... some ppl are not knowledgeable yet can share the eye of wisdom in simple ways while others carry specific knowledge about a particular tradition within their energy field which is a couple of octaves higher in intensity. The energetic and knowledge occur in infinite combinations, no need to get too impressed. I know a teacher who wisely advises his students becoming teachers not to try to teach... key word "try". I have seen trying, it doesn't work for me. Natural sharing is a diff realm. And, those who embody an energetic presence do so without pretense... actually, it's not a choice, it just is. I've experienced this with teachers spiritual as well as other ppl who truly love and connect with what they are doing, like ski instructors and massage teachers .... all you have to do is "rub elbows" with them and a transmission of sorts is made. I'd call it an initiation, then it's up to one if they pursue/develop it as their own.

Spiritual masters and ordinary ppl all have a presence. Ofc, it may be diff in capacity/intensity, yet humans affect each other energetically. Just tune into kinhin/sesshin/sangha to start seeing this. This has nothing necessarily to do with charisma which may or may not be false. IMO, it is a mistake to dismiss the experience. It is important to discern essence and pretense as well as child like idealizations. Still, there is an energetic realm that serves to teach naturally if we are conscious and know ourselves. Else, we become duped by falsity which lives a few feet from the body ... thus, observe abuse in spiritual community, lynch mobs, hysteria, as well as the allure of so-called political heroes. The Buddha's advice "be a lamp unto yourself" is meaningful here.

I've had moments where I know it's not linda speaking, free of walls in the mind. I'm sure we all notice it from time to time. Any good actor knows this, so do comedians. Master teachers have this ability naturally. It can indeed be palpable. I think it's time to bring it down to earth so that we can recognize our spiritual inheritance which is true nature. It calls for a spiritual maturity with a clear eye. I don't think it's all that difficult if we know the mechanics... it is not something to keep from beginners, imo. There are good reasons for dismissing energetics, they can be problematic... a little education goes a long way in this realm. Else, limitation holds ppl back unnecessarily until the next lifetime. And, as we have seen, as soon as something becomes off limits, everyone wants to go there ... just like in the Wizard of Oz. I have seen ppl cheated by so-called wizards and/or ideas about capacity. Best we find our own sharing wisdom eye for growing flowers or writing sutras.

just sayin

linda
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3652
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Michaeljc on Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:17 am

I have been lucky enough to sit 2 sesshin with John Daido Loori. His Teisho I will never forget. He would commonly present exactly the same talk several days in a row based on non-sense. The entire message was behind the words. I was very new to Zen but became fixated on him wondering "What the heck is driving this man?" It was so powerful I became a afraid and took several months to come back to sitting after the first sesshin.

These were my first sesshin and I expected all following Teisho from other teachers would be similar. I have not experienced anything like it since.
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3627
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Chrisd on Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:05 pm

rly nice post linda thx

:lol2: nice story michael

Ramana Maharshi was known for his silence. People supposedly just melted in his presence :lol2:
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:45 pm

Michaeljc wrote:I have been lucky enough to sit 2 sesshin with John Daido Loori. His Teisho I will never forget. He would commonly present exactly the same talk several days in a row based on non-sense. The entire message was behind the words. I was very new to Zen but became fixated on him wondering "What the heck is driving this man?" It was so powerful I became a afraid and took several months to come back to sitting after the first sesshin.

These were my first sesshin and I expected all following Teisho from other teachers would be similar. I have not experienced anything like it since.


yes, this is rare. My first teacher used to say he was just tap dancing when he said things... there was something deeper. I've seen this a few times with masters like Namkai Norbu, for one... many years ago I was on a short retreat near Lake Tahoe, walking in the woods, the realizations were palpable. Fortunately, I've forgotten what they were, it doesn't matter, they are not lost. I know of another teacher with no lineage who demonstrates this by talking about politics and then pointing out the energy underneath. He talks about it in terms of Shakti, and he also is quite capable of verbalizing spiritual teachings.

The key for me is to hold this lightly, no preference, no judgement, no seeking after. imo, it's more important to share, sutras or gardening, to make an offering. It's not our business how it touches others, and we usually never know.

ofc, the question becomes, is it them or me, or both, like arrows meeting, except no arrows, no meeting.

@Chris, re Ramana... modern day healer, Braco, from eastern Europe. He does not speak in public. He draws thousands, the mystery is there. I've seen him with hundreds.
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3652
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Chrisd on Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:03 pm

Nice to hear about Braco and others.
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:24 pm

interesting conversation... just to keep this on topic, this is not foreign in zen/chan.

the first sesshin I ever went to, I knew nothing about zen although I was not new to the so-called path. It was a mystery of silence, walking, eating in community. A teaching without words... walking was not walking, it was more than stretching legs although it served that purpose too. The footwork was extra. Beautiful, permit me to judge it beautiful.
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3652
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Guo Gu on Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:43 pm

it's a (subtle) form of arrogance....
be well,
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.com/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
User avatar
Guo Gu
Teacher
 
Posts: 1274
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:52 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Chrisd on Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:38 pm

Guo Gu wrote:it's a (subtle) form of arrogance....
be well,
guo gu


Are you saying we're not perfect students?! :PP:

:Namaste:

Not knowing what you are referring to, I'm just going to let that stand for comic purpose.
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:38 pm

Guo Gu wrote:it's a (subtle) form of arrogance....
be well,
guo gu


:daisy:
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3627
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Guo Gu on Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:53 am

sorry... my reply was not asked for. but just wanted to point out that this is precisely why a teacher is necessary. no, of course not, chrisd, not saying that students have to be perfect.
be well,
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.com/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
User avatar
Guo Gu
Teacher
 
Posts: 1274
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:52 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Chrisd on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:45 am

Teachers don't have to be perfect either :Namaste:
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Guo Gu on Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:52 pm

chrisd,
the water must be clear before it can reflect the moon. this goes for teachers and students. the moon has always been perfect.
be free,
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.com/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
User avatar
Guo Gu
Teacher
 
Posts: 1274
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:52 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL

Re: silent illumination 7-day retreat 12/26 ~ 1/1

Postby Chrisd on Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:04 pm

yeah f*ck me, thanks GG :peace:
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Zen Events

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest