Welcome admin !

It is currently Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:54 am
Pathway:  Board index Zen Discussion Forum Zen Practice & Philosophy Zen Buddhism Practical Buddhism

Belief

Discussion of Zen Buddhism-in-action, application in daily life.

Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:57 am

Lunarious1987 wrote:I believed you at first, and looked up to you (remember our PM?), but you hurt me, like any disbeliever. Youre an enemy. Had a moderator been here, i'd tell him this guy is a liar and he is persecuting me. Now Shut up and go away.

Don't look up to me. I'm just a person who you don't know at all.

I am not a believer (in most conventional things not susceptible to proof or refutation).

I suggest you survey others here to discover opinions on "belief". They (other people) may disappoint you, too. If so, then I will remain to be seen in good company, even if not in yours.

w/ best regards,

--Joe

p.s. Go back to the OP and respond to the OP's line of presentation, inquiry, and argument. I'm just one of many here. Don't stray from the topic. Remain on-topic. That's the way to garner respect. And no swearing. Align with the strictures of the TOU, for universal workability and civility, which we all agreed to upon becoming Members of the Forum. Bad behavior and language does not put one's upbringing in a good light, and thus dishonors one's parents. Be mindful of the consequences.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7013
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Belief

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:19 am

Shut up. I'm talking to OP, the world doesnt revolve around you.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:26 am

Lunarious1987 wrote:Shut up.

You make your upbringing again look bad. And you disrespect the TOU and dishonor your personal (adult?) agreement to it. Oh, well.

"I'm talking to OP"
Go ahead. Waiting for you to do so (go ahead).

"the world doesnt revolve around you."
Tee-hee, right. You're talking to an Astronomer, here (instead of to the OP, though. Again, oh, well).

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7013
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Belief

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:41 am

I didn't agree to anything. I skipped TOS. I only checked the box. Now leave and stop wasting MB of broadband and space, and let me talk to OP.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:23 am

Lun.,

Carry on, Montesquieu,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7013
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Belief

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:54 am

desert_woodworker wrote:mdd,

macdougdoug wrote:Why do we need to believe?

There must be a big literature on this.

I don't know if there's a "need" to believe, but there may be an inclination to do so, in some people, at some times. To learn (their reasons) why, we need to interview them.

--Joe


To spin one answer... I'd say we believe to confirm our existence. I can't think of much that isn't a belief in the manifest world. Knowing arises from a diff dimension/mystery. We think of believe as things like economic theory, what I think about xyz, religious, stories and history we tell, etc... but it's a much bigger topic which includes pretty much everything we say/think. When we get here, we can use other words in place of the word belief. Essentially, they reassure us that we exist. We could say it arises from our existenial fear, but that's a bit abstract... just go snorkling and swim out to the deep end where the water is humdreds of feet deep... now feel what that feels like. We could call it existenial fear, but that's too easy. Others may speak of trust, safety, security, even honor ... words of a feather. We really don't need books...

Recently, I came to a quiet place of seeing that my entire life history which is me, does not exist... it only exists when I speak of it. I notice myself doing that more as I age, like a life review.... and, it doesn't exist! :) Otherwise, I have nothing to stand on. It's funny and sweet in a way... too bad I have to use words to say so tho. When we don't exist, we have an opportunity for true relationship, like the pieces in a puzzle.

My zen teacher always said: "don't believe what you think" ..... that's a useful exercise tho it has it's limits. The poem above speaks to this level.

Blessings for Christmas/Hanukkah/Holidays and the New Year Dear Ones,
linda

ps... that's not to say that beliefs are to be banished... it's that attachment thing for starters. Then there is being.
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3820
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Belief

Postby macdougdoug on Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:41 am

Lunarious1987 wrote:Actually how can you not believe what i or anyone says? Isn't that doubt you're speaking of?
Edit: Disbelief is the cowards way. Miyamoto Musashi said: I respect (And believe) in Buddha and the Gods, but do not seek their help. And thats right. All religion is right, because it believes in a higher power. Allah. But you gotta be faithful (keep word). And keeping word is to be a believer. Until you can't take it anymore, because Allah doesnt burden a soul more than it can take, but try first.



Belief and disbelief are just 2 believers on different sides of the fence - belief does not create conflict : it is conflict. What has conflict got to do with religion? Surely the ultimate goal of religion is Union with the beloved ? How can conflict result in Union? How can there be union with God if we can only see conflict? Surely the conflict must cease, surely we must first be able to see clearly without fear and hatred in order to understand anything?

My belief about God cannot be the true image of God. How can I find God if I already have an image of Him? If I think that a hammer looks like a screwdriver, I will never find the hammer.

I do not know what God is, how can I believe or disbelieve? Only when words, images, and symbols lose their power over me, may I find myself at the center of a miraculous mystery.
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Belief

Postby macdougdoug on Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:12 am

Linda Anderson wrote:[

that's not to say that beliefs are to be banished... it's that attachment thing for starters.


If I believe that beliefs are to be banished or cherished that's just more beliefs.
These are just movements of the self, reactions due to fear or the need for comfort and security.

Are we seeking understanding? Or are we seeking comfort? Why are we seeking these things?
There is no answer to this unless we see who is seeking. Only by seeing clearly what it is to be a human being, with our billions of years of conditioning in our quest for satisfaction and safety, will we be free to live fully.

And a Happy holiday to all!
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Belief

Postby macdougdoug on Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:32 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
macdougdoug wrote:Why do we need to believe?

There must be a big literature on this.

I don't know if there's a "need" to believe, but there may be an inclination to do so, in some people, at some times. To learn (their reasons) why, we need to interview them.



To understand humans just look at yourself. If we start dissecting other humans without first exploring our own views, we shall only come to personal conclusions.

Our views depend on separation, understanding comes from seeing the whole. eg. : Separating events into cause and effect can lead to a fractured/chronological picture of reality; and thus we see people talking to their psychologists or mediums for years uncovering perceived layer after layer in the hope of finding the 1st cause.

Fear and uncertainty do not lead to desire for comfort and belief; they are the same thing. We cannot struggle with one aspect in order to eliminate the other.
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Belief

Postby oryoki on Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:05 pm

Faith can conquer doubt but it cannot conquer ignorance, and with doubt conquered ignorance then reins supreme.

Muslims believe that Islam is a submission to the will of God/Allah, when it is in fact submission to the will of Muhammad.

And what Muhammad said? He said that the world was created in 6 days, and if a man dies defending Islam then he will get to heaven where 72 virgins will be provided for him for his sexual pleasure... Laughable!!!

I smoked for 15 years. Cigarettes cost money, smoke stinks and smokers can get cancer. So I know from experience that the easy way to punish a smoker for his/hers habit is just to let him/her smoke. I spent 4 years in the Middle East living and working among Muslims, and I had read Quran. So I know from experience that the easy way to punish Muslims for their ignorance is to let them believe the word of that clown Muhammad. (I suppose that them virgins would after some time again re-virginate themselves).
User avatar
oryoki
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 6:18 pm

Re: Belief

Postby macdougdoug on Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:38 pm

:ninja:
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Belief

Postby [james] on Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:02 am

oryoki wrote:Faith can conquer doubt but it cannot conquer ignorance, and with doubt conquered ignorance then reins supreme.


excerpt from the Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising translated by Thanissaro Bhikku:

Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you.

"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

........


"And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance.



oryoki wrote:So I know from experience that the easy way to punish Muslims for their ignorance is to let them believe the word of that clown Muhammad.


Given the above, one must question the wish to punish Muslims or anyone else for their ignorance.
User avatar
[james]
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 am

Re: Belief

Postby anka on Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:06 pm

Many believe because it gives comfort, purpose, and direction to their lives. Even Buddhists at some level believe that their practice will improve the life of those around them and in turn their own.

In most this belief can give birth to compassion, which is wonderfull. However, when people take these beliefs to far (radical Muslims and Christians) they can do a lot of harm.

Like everything in this world belief is not black or white, it is every hue of gray there is.

-Anka
anka
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:08 pm

Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:39 pm

mdd,

macdougdoug wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
macdougdoug wrote:Why do we need to believe?

There must be a big literature on this.

I don't know if there's a "need" to believe, but there may be an inclination to do so, in some people, at some times. To learn (their reasons) why, we need to interview them.

To understand humans just look at yourself. If we start dissecting other humans without first exploring our own views, we shall only come to personal conclusions.

I'd suggest that we not dissect others, but interview them. Lots of them. They'll give reasons (if they have them and can identify and articulate them) for "why they need to believe"). Again, I think there must be a large body of literature on this... written by Theologians with a psychological bent. And other writings with different points of departure by Psychologists, and yet other writings by Philosophers.

One single data point (one's own reasons for "believing") is just one data point. Some would say too that it is subjective. And to claim that one's own reasons extend and apply to all Humans' reasons would be, well, a bit presumptuous, I'd say!

After identifying our own private reasons for belief, we may use one's own reasons to sympathize with the reasons of others, but not to say that they are hereby universalized in others (I'd say... ).

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7013
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Belief

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:44 pm

At the end of the day, look back at the source of the belief. To say it a different way, look back at the source of the mind.

There are 10,000 ways we can spin this and polish the stone.

linda
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3820
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Belief

Postby partofit22 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:18 pm

What Linda said- Image Early in the morning, first thing in the afternoon, just before it gets dark- Any time- This moment- One might think they believe in a thing, but at the source? I surely don't know ..
partofit22
 
Posts: 4810
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:36 pm

Re: Belief

Postby Michaeljc on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:30 pm

At this very moment, where is belief?
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3659
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: Belief

Postby macdougdoug on Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:26 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
One single data point (one's own reasons for "believing") is just one data point. Some would say too that it is subjective. And to claim that one's own reasons extend and apply to all Humans' reasons would be, well, a bit presumptuous, I'd say!



The debate here is : are we all fundamentally different or the same?
Some defend the scientific way of thinking, others defend the imagined buddhist viewpoint, some the christian, some even defend islam. I defend my beliefs and thus myself against all disbelievers, because if you disbelieve what I believe you are attacking something very important to me, possibly my very sense of being.
We all presume to be special or different - in this we are the same.
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:34 am

macdougdoug wrote:The debate here is : are we all fundamentally different or the same?

I'd say there must be clarification before there is "debate", and before there is (intellectual... ) understanding.

You use, above, an as yet unclarified word, "fundamentally". Briefly, my view is that fundamentally, we spring from a common source, the Absolute, or the Unconditioned, and participate in it mostly unwittingly. And there are no differences (is no difference... ) there, in the ground of the Absolute. And if we are however, unawakened, then we are conditioned by myriad delusions, which may be very different, from person to person.

So, yes, "deep-down", we have an identical root, or could be considered the same being. But on our "surface" (where delusions cling... ), different and untold delusions may have us in their clutches at any moment, or for long periods.

Granted, there may be some commonalities of delusion among people. But I cannot grant that everyone is simultaneously under the same delusion or set of delusions at any one time.

So, yes, "deep-down", we are uniform. But on our "surface" (again, where delusions cling), different and untold delusions may have us in their clutches at any moment, or for long periods (but, I repeat myself).

Now, to complicate the case of awakened people, ...different awakened people may act differently (i.e., "not the same") in a given circumstance because they are employing different skillful means, developed through the course of their (also different) overall practice in different causes and conditions. One who has the eye, though, can probably see commonalities, however, between the two awakened people acting differently. Oh, almost certainly, I'd say.

As a scientist, I feel I have weaker beliefs than other people. I'll tell you why. One wants to be surprised, one wants to find something wonderful, or surprising. Scientists in general, I'd say, tend to "doubt their beliefs", and to use beliefs mostly as temporary tools to land them onto fertile soil. Once on the fertile soil, one can ignore beliefs, and look around. That's when discovery happens.

There's no Nobel Prize in holding fast to (common) beliefs. One has to get into deep water, and really feel "at sea", to break into larger territory with new horizons. This is what I find to be true in my profession, in my (Buddhist and Yoga) practice, and in life generally.

At the moment, I "believe" it's going to be a White Christmas here, above 3000 feet, anyway. Or maybe even at my doorstep, at 2500 feet. A cold rain is falling, and there's some 12 hours until morning.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7013
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Belief

Postby partofit22 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:47 pm

The oldest person in the world, on record, recently turned 117- When asked what she thought contributed to her longevity she said she ate two raw eggs on a daily basis-

My own mother is almost 100 years old- Her body is layered with pies and cakes, creamed onions from Thanksgivings long past, coffee consumption, communion wafers, you name it- She believes in the teachings of Jesus, that everyone born is a child of God, regardless if people believe in God or not, regardless of what God may be-

So, I'd say well worn paths are equal to long rows that have been hoed- There are roots in both-
partofit22
 
Posts: 4810
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:36 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Practical Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests