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Belief

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Belief

Postby macdougdoug on Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:13 pm

What we know, we know.
There is no need to believe what I already know.
Why do we need to believe?
Belief seems to be a defence mechanism and barrier; it can be separation and conflict; it clouds the open heart.
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Re: Belief

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:28 pm

macdougdoug wrote:What we know, we know.
There is no need to believe what I already know.
Why do we need to believe?
Belief seems to be a defence mechanism and barrier; it can be separation and conflict; it clouds the open heart.


this came up instantly... here's a poem that we frequently read out-loud as a group in the afternoon before dinner on zen silent retreat:
The Place Where We Are Right

by Yehuda Amichai

From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring.

The place where we are right
Is hard and trampled
Like a yard.

But doubts and loves
Dig up the world
Like a mole, a plow.
And a whisper will be heard in the place
Where the ruined
House once stood.


agree.... what you said

linda
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: Belief

Postby macdougdoug on Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:01 pm

Doubt frees us from belief. Belief frees us from doubt.

In Zazen we watch as the waves crash against the shore and dissapear.
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Re: Belief

Postby Lunarious1987 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:50 pm

There are two armies.
1. Honorable generous angry killers. Believers (faithers, faithful). Doubtful. Courageous. Animal: Phoenix.
2. A disgrace of people peaceful opportunistic ones. Disbelievers. Knowledgable. Strong. Animal: Elephant.

Both these are fighters for what they believe in, in the middle; there are ashes. Survivors. They are not alive.

Edit: Surah Al-Fil
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Hast thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the owners of the Elephant? (1) Did He not bring their stratagem to naught, (2) And send against them swarms of flying creatures, (3) Which pelted them with stones of baked clay, (4) And made them like green crops devoured (by cattle)? (5)

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Belief

Postby macdougdoug on Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:22 pm

Belief is conflict, for there is an infinite amount of stuff that does not fit in with my beliefs.
My beliefs determine which side of the conflict I shall fight for.
My perception of the world depends on my beliefs. I am the world that I see.
We are at war on the outside because we are at war on the inside.

PS. Whats the difference between belief and disbelief? Whats the difference between us?
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Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:40 pm

If Love is never having to say you're sorry, e.g., ...

L_S.jpg

then, Belief is never having to say you're unsure (despite lack of evidence; or with a plethora of it).

--Joe
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Re: Belief

Postby Lunarious1987 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:56 pm

Actually how can you not believe what i or anyone says? Isn't that doubt you're speaking of?
Edit: Disbelief is the cowards way. Miyamoto Musashi said: I respect (And believe) in Buddha and the Gods, but do not seek their help. And thats right. All religion is right, because it believes in a higher power. Allah. But you gotta be faithful (keep word). And keeping word is to be a believer. Until you can't take it anymore, because Allah doesnt burden a soul more than it can take, but try first.

Peace
Last edited by Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:08 am

Without evidence, or experience, there is doubt, from the unfulfilled hearsay, and no reason for belief, no matter who is speaking.

This is a Scientist's and scholar's viewpoint, anyway, as well as that of persons who utilize common-sense (i.e., people who are not broadly gullible).

--Joe
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Re: Belief

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:16 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Without evidence, or experience, there is doubt, from the unfulfilled hearsay, and no reason for belief, no matter who is speaking.

This is a Scientist's and scholar's viewpoint, anyway, as well as that of persons who utilize common-sense (i.e., people who are not broadly gullible).

--Joe

Bullshit.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Belief

Postby [james] on Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:46 am

Lunarious1987 wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Without evidence, or experience, there is doubt, from the unfulfilled hearsay, and no reason for belief, no matter who is speaking.

This is a Scientist's and scholar's viewpoint, anyway, as well as that of persons who utilize common-sense (i.e., people who are not broadly gullible).

--Joe

Bullshit.


Without evidence or experience, there is no reason for belief or disbelief. Best to suspend judgement and start investigating.

Bullshit?
Really?
Where is the bullshit?
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Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:46 am

Lun.,

Take it or leave it. I would not withhold the truth from you.

Ask others here, about the content above. And, ask elsewhere.

You're right not to believe!

haha,

--Joe
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Re: Belief

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:23 am

[james] wrote:
Lunarious1987 wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Without evidence, or experience, there is doubt, from the unfulfilled hearsay, and no reason for belief, no matter who is speaking.

This is a Scientist's and scholar's viewpoint, anyway, as well as that of persons who utilize common-sense (i.e., people who are not broadly gullible).

--Joe

Bullshit.


Without evidence or experience, there is no reason for belief or disbelief. Best to suspend judgement and start investigating.

Bullshit?
Really?
Where is the bullshit?

Not what he said, but the way he said. He is a scientist, but stupid rather evil. Allah says in arabic: Fear Allah Scientists/Knowledgable. This means Scientists fear Allah, but it could also mean Allah fears scientists in Arabic. He is so proud of being a scientist, but isn't his pride arrogance? His aura hurts weak people and inflence them the wrong direction. He is happy controlling those weaker than him, and keeping them down for his pleasure. He is a bullshiter. An enemy.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Belief

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:29 am

He says haha because he thinks i'm jealous and hiding from him supressing my feelings. This is like having a fetish on rape. You don't hurt jealous of you people and break the law, you leave them deal with this jealousy to reduce suffering. He is a bithch, following law but breaking norms.
Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
Lunarious1987
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Belief

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:29 am

He says haha because he thinks i'm jealous and hiding from him supressing my feelings. This is like having a fetish on rape. You don't hurt jealous of you people and break the law, you leave them deal with this jealousy to reduce suffering. He is a bithch, following law but breaking norms.
Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Belief

Postby [james] on Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:46 am

Lunarious1987 wrote:Not what he said, but the way he said.
Peace


Okay. Thanks for the clarification
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Re: Belief

Postby [james] on Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:48 am

Lunarious1987 wrote:He says haha


I know what you mean.

Don't let words poison you.
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Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:21 am

Lunarious1987 wrote:He says haha because he thinks i'm jealous and hiding from him supressing my feelings.

No, no, no. Often wrong, there.

I say haha because you are the believer, but I tell you not to believe me in the instance above. I ask you to be safe(r), and to ask others here whether I am withholding the truth from you. I'm not. But, see what they say. Get a few more data points.

James already suggests that you "suspend judgement and start investigating".

Really, this sort of simple thing is not so difficult. It's not rocket engineering.

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:31 am

You're right not to believe.

--Joe
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Re: Belief

Postby Lunarious1987 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:37 am

I believed you at first, and looked up to you (remember our PM?), but you hurt me, like any disbeliever. Youre an enemy. Had a moderator been here, i'd tell him this guy is a liar and he is persecuting me. Now Shut up and go away.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: Belief

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:48 am

mdd,

macdougdoug wrote:Why do we need to believe?

There must be a big literature on this.

I don't know if there's a "need" to believe, but there may be an inclination to do so, in some people, at some times. To learn (their reasons) why, we need to interview them.

--Joe
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