Welcome admin !

It is currently Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:55 am
Pathway:  Board index Zen Discussion Forum Zen Practice & Philosophy Zen Buddhism Practical Buddhism

vortex

Discussion of Zen Buddhism-in-action, application in daily life.

Re: vortex

Postby another_being on Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:03 pm

Avisitor wrote:
another_being wrote:With all respect, the only one who will reveal what is true and what isn't, is you. Teachers and sangha will provide pointers.
:peace:


So, how does one reveal what is true or not if one has no idea of what is true or not??
There are things like self deception and delusions??
Without the proper support, any truth that is or was revealed becomes a faded memory??
Then who knows if the memory remains true??

Note: There is a willingness in me to listen to anyone
Agreement or not, it is the part of life which has the spice

Speaking of spice, tried it in my coffee ... can't say it was my cup of tea ... :coffee:


Hi, Avisitor.
"If one has no idea" is a good start. :) Self-deception and delusions are ideas. Memories resemble ideas.
Seung Sahn said, "Put down your opinion, your condition, your situation." All it takes is noticing (vigilantly) when an opinion arises.

One old buddha simply instructed, "Attention, attention, attention." Bodhidharma said, “Behold the mind.”

(This gift from Guo Gu of the case of the Vortex is an interesting ride, ideas and opinions arising and falling away in me, soaking in it for a while.) :Namaste:
"Some people think they are enlightened, some people think they are not enlightened." -- Denko
User avatar
another_being
 
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:21 pm

Re: vortex

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:01 pm

I'v been walk'n these streets alone,

sing'n the same old song

:bored:
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3640
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: vortex

Postby partofit22 on Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:07 pm

I know every crack in these dirty sidewalks of Broadway .. :lol2:
partofit22
 
Posts: 4630
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:36 pm

Re: vortex

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:12 pm

I'm a Zabuton cowboy :lol2:
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3640
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: vortex

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:30 am

I admire bull-riders, ropers, and other rodeo stars,
but, zafu-riders -- now THAT'S sumpthin'. --Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6468
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: vortex

Postby Avisitor on Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:29 am

another_being wrote:Hi, Avisitor.
"If one has no idea" is a good start. :) Self-deception and delusions are ideas. Memories resemble ideas.
Seung Sahn said, "Put down your opinion, your condition, your situation." All it takes is noticing (vigilantly) when an opinion arises.

One old buddha simply instructed, "Attention, attention, attention." Bodhidharma said, “Behold the mind.”

(This gift from Guo Gu of the case of the Vortex is an interesting ride, ideas and opinions arising and falling away in me, soaking in it for a while.) :Namaste:

Yes, self-deception and delusions are ideas but that doesn't make them any less real

Oh, and it is very much disliked to be given quotes of the masters
Cause most of the time one can not tell what the person knows (of who is giving the quotes)
First the masters were talking to someone else
Second the words are all demon words
Third the words are all true if one has dropped all this grasping

Pretty sure that if one started to give quotes for answers in Dokusan that one would be admonished
And in normal conversation, one wants to hear the mind of the speaker and not some dead man from long ago
Sorry, just a pet peeve

Yeah, don't waste one's time trying to get this old goat to move past those gates
But, pour me another cup of coffee and I'll be your friend ... for now ... :coffee:
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
User avatar
Avisitor
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:43 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Re: vortex

Postby partofit22 on Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:00 pm

Michaeljc wrote:I'm a Zabuton cowboy :lol2:


A Zabuton rodeo clown! :lol2:
partofit22
 
Posts: 4630
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:36 pm

Re: vortex

Postby Michaeljc on Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:54 pm

Environments evolve to withstand prevailing conditions. Here, trees lean towards the NE. Houses too are protected from these persistent SW sea-winds by planted wind-breaks. When a dog sits and looks, he faces N towards the sun and the calm. Cows turn into the wind to urinate. Its our vortex

Occasionally, strong storms develop from the wrong way. Roofs blow off, trees topple, animals and people, mill around agitated, and I sit indoors – my out-door deck drenched and buffeted. One can just listen, to the wind, the rain
Last edited by Michaeljc on Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3640
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: vortex

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:58 am

desert_woodworker wrote:I admire bull-riders, ropers, and other rodeo stars,
but, zafu-riders -- now THAT'S sumpthin'. --Joe



How about illusionists and escape artists?

are the Houdini's in the vortex's or is it just part of the trick that the crowd thinks that?
Mijn Oude Vriend uit de woestijn begrijpt geen Nederlands. <3
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6623
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: vortex

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:49 am

Fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:I admire bull-riders, ropers, and other rodeo stars,
but, zafu-riders -- now THAT'S sumpthin'. --Joe

How about illusionists and escape artists?

are the Houdini's in the vortex's or is it just part of the trick that the crowd thinks that?

We may never know, about the true artists, who escape, but yet stay to tantalize and taunt us to do the same, and yet to STAY, ourselves.

Bodhisattvas, HAIL!, are slipperier than Coyotes!, the great tricksters of the desert, according to the Native Americans, here.

--Joe

TricksterCoyote.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6468
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: vortex

Postby another_being on Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:21 am

Avisitor wrote:
another_being wrote:Hi, Avisitor.
"If one has no idea" is a good start. :) Self-deception and delusions are ideas. Memories resemble ideas.
Seung Sahn said, "Put down your opinion, your condition, your situation." All it takes is noticing (vigilantly) when an opinion arises.

One old buddha simply instructed, "Attention, attention, attention." Bodhidharma said, “Behold the mind.”

(This gift from Guo Gu of the case of the Vortex is an interesting ride, ideas and opinions arising and falling away in me, soaking in it for a while.) :Namaste:

Yes, self-deception and delusions are ideas but that doesn't make them any less real

Oh, and it is very much disliked to be given quotes of the masters
Cause most of the time one can not tell what the person knows (of who is giving the quotes)
First the masters were talking to someone else
Second the words are all demon words
Third the words are all true if one has dropped all this grasping

Pretty sure that if one started to give quotes for answers in Dokusan that one would be admonished
And in normal conversation, one wants to hear the mind of the speaker and not some dead man from long ago
Sorry, just a pet peeve

Yeah, don't waste one's time trying to get this old goat to move past those gates
But, pour me another cup of coffee and I'll be your friend ... for now ... :coffee:


Dear Avisitor,

1) "Yes, self-deception and delusions are ideas but that doesn't make them any less real."
Self-deception and delusions are empty, as are "you." And, also as full as "you" make them.

2) What does it matter what the person knows (of who is giving the quotes)?
The person giving the quotes, and what they "know" is irrelevant. It's up to an individual to determine for themselves the truth of the message. Or not. The like or dislike of the quotes is also up to you.

3) The masters are always talking to you, right here and now.

4) The words are simply the words. You make them "demon" or not; simply see their truth or not, grasping or not. Besides, you asked.

5) We're not in dokusan. We're on an internet forum.

6) In normal conversation, I said, "If one has no idea', is a good start. Self-deception and delusion are ideas." There's no fear of admonishment here. There's no need to say you're sorry if you're not.

7) No time is being wasted. If you want to think of yourself as an old goat, feel free. As for pouring a cup of coffee, help yourself.

Together, we cling to these words, ideas of ourselves, and the vortex drags us further down into darkness.
"Some people think they are enlightened, some people think they are not enlightened." -- Denko
User avatar
another_being
 
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:21 pm

Re: vortex

Postby Avisitor on Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:44 am

another_being wrote:Dear Avisitor,

Don't take this personally. It is just another opinion.
Take it to heart and one misses the message.
And so one stays in their own opinion.

another_being wrote:1) Self-deception and delusions are empty, as are "you." And, also as full as "you" make them.

Understood. Now prove self-deception and delusions are empty as are "you".
Saying something .. anything doesn't make it true .. regardless of how hard one believes it.
Many times one says something that one has heard but doesn't really understand??


another_being wrote:2) What does it matter what the person knows (of who is giving the quotes)?
The person giving the quotes, and what they "know" is irrelevant. It's up to an individual to determine for themselves the truth of the message. Or not. The like or dislike of the quotes is also up to you.

It is important to know what the person who giving the quote knows because it is part of the message.
One puts out quotes of others without really knowing what they mean then using their own intent to think they are spreading truth.
So what is the real message??

another_being wrote:3) The masters are always talking to you, right here and now.

No they are not. Dead is dead. Quoting them doesn't bring them back to life. Well, maybe in one's own mind??


another_being wrote:4) The words are simply the words. You make them "demon" or not; simply see their truth or not, grasping or not. Besides, you asked.

Words build worlds and open contracts and decides who lives and who dies
Words can make two strangers friends or start a world war
There is nothing simple about words.
Communications is not easy without common experiences or some basis for understanding.

another_being wrote:5) We're not in dokusan. We're on an internet forum.

What was said .. was "IF" one were in Dokusan. Guess that part of simple words was more complex


another_being wrote:6) In normal conversation, I said, "If one has no idea', is a good start. Self-deception and delusion are ideas." There's no fear of admonishment here.

Again, admonishments was related to using quotes of the old Zen Masters for answers in Dokusan and not in normal conversation.
Maybe one should not misunderstand or mistake "simply words"
Can one see how easy it is to make mistakes with words??

another_being wrote:7) No time is being wasted. If you want to think of yourself as an old goat, feel free.

One can not insult another by calling them their own names.


another_being wrote:As for pouring a cup of coffee, help yourself.

Guess one doesn't want to be friends??
So where now is one's compassion?
Where is that brilliant mind of the enlightened??

another_being wrote:Together, we cling to these words, ideas of ourselves, and the vortex drags us further down into darkness.

It is all drama, vortex, believing self is more important. But yeah, I get the message.

another_being wrote:There's no need to say you're sorry if you're not.

No, I am truly sorry for engaging in this drama, vortex with you
I apologize for any offense you may perceive. None was intended

Now if one can step out of one's own anger, I will gladly shake one's hand in a sign of friendship
If not then I wish you peace and to be well.

Yeah, anytime someone disagrees with another there seems to be anger.
Guess that is part of the desires or is it part of the ignorance??
Last edited by Avisitor on Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
User avatar
Avisitor
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:43 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Re: vortex

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:02 am

Av,
Avisitor wrote:One can not insult another by calling them their own names.

Egad. That's the finest line I've read here in six hundred and fifty years.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6468
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: vortex

Postby another_being on Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:46 am

Friend, Avisitor. :)

I definitely get that it's not personal! You took my responses as anger, but there was no anger in them.

Understood. Now prove self-deception and delusions are empty as are "you".
Saying something .. anything doesn't make it true .. regardless of how hard one believes it.
Many times one says something that one has heard but doesn't really understand??


This isn't provable by words. Maybe you know. I understand that the saying of it doesn't make it true. It's only by recognizing truth that its truth is seen. Has nothing to do with belief, because belief is as empty as all the rest (and as full as we choose to inflate it). Understanding is something between you and truth, but these ("you" and truth), at the most fundamental, aren't two, of course. :)

It is important to know what the person who giving the quote knows because it is part of the message.
One puts out quotes of others without really knowing what they mean then using their own intent to think they are spreading truth.
So what is the real message??


The message has nothing to do with your presumptions of the one giving the message. One either recognizes its fundamental truth, or one doesn't. Anything tacked on as far as attempting to assess the value of the giver of the message is invention and personal judgment. The giver/sharer of the message is a temporary, provisional conduit of the truth (or bullshit, as it may be).

But here we go, swirling down into the vortex! The original post, I think, was to caution us against this. Then again, maybe I've gone overboard. :peace:
"Some people think they are enlightened, some people think they are not enlightened." -- Denko
User avatar
another_being
 
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:21 pm

Re: vortex

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:16 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
We may never know, about the true artists, who escape, but yet stay to tantalize and taunt us to do the same, and yet to STAY, ourselves.

Bodhisattvas, HAIL!, are slipperier than Coyotes!, the great tricksters of the desert, according to the Native Americans, here.

Joe,

as if they had a choice!
Mijn Oude Vriend uit de woestijn begrijpt geen Nederlands. <3
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6623
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: vortex

Postby Avisitor on Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:36 pm

another_being wrote:Friend, Avisitor. :)

Thanks, like having friends :heya:

another_being wrote:I definitely get that it's not personal! You took my responses as anger, but there was no anger in them.

Some do ... most don't ... not personal

Understood. Now prove self-deception and delusions are empty as are "you".
Saying something .. anything doesn't make it true .. regardless of how hard one believes it.
Many times one says something that one has heard but doesn't really understand??


another_being wrote:This isn't provable by words. Maybe you know. I understand that the saying of it doesn't make it true. It's only by recognizing truth that its truth is seen. Has nothing to do with belief, because belief is as empty as all the rest (and as full as we choose to inflate it). Understanding is something between you and truth, but these ("you" and truth), at the most fundamental, aren't two, of course. :)

If there is a common experience then the words help to bond the two talking
And it provides an avenue for proving the truth??

It is important to know what the person who giving the quote knows because it is part of the message.
One puts out quotes of others without really knowing what they mean then using their own intent to think they are spreading truth.
So what is the real message??


another_being wrote:The message has nothing to do with your presumptions of the one giving the message. One either recognizes its fundamental truth, or one doesn't. Anything tacked on as far as attempting to assess the value of the giver of the message is invention and personal judgment. The giver/sharer of the message is a temporary, provisional conduit of the truth (or bullshit, as it may be).

But here we go, swirling down into the vortex! The original post, I think, was to caution us against this. Then again, maybe I've gone overboard. :peace:

Okay, Understood ... that is one's opinion ... it isn't mine. Need to know who or what the message is from. It provides another aspect of the message.

Yeah, so glad we got to talk without going down that vortex. Thanks.
Coffee's on me ..... :coffee:
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
Sorry, got a message that I was not being PC.
User avatar
Avisitor
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:43 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Re: vortex

Postby another_being on Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:32 am

:coffee: Cheers, I'm having a cup right now, raising it to you.
"Some people think they are enlightened, some people think they are not enlightened." -- Denko
User avatar
another_being
 
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:21 pm

Re: vortex

Postby Chrisd on Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:43 am

another_being wrote:
Chrisd wrote:
Avisitor wrote:Just that it is difficult to know for sure (unless one has had some dealings with this or previous experience)
So what is the right course of action??
Maybe what some have been saying from the beginning
Go find a teacher and a sangha ... follow up ... practice
And probably limit exposure on forums??


yes probably finding a teacher and sangha and practice is then the best option.
That should reveal what is true and what isn't.


With all respect, the only one who will reveal what is true and what isn't, is you. Teachers and sangha will provide pointers.

:peace:


I didn't say that wasn't the case ab, there's no contradiction. It's just giving a push to someone in apparent need. Teacher sangha and practice do serve their purpose.
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: vortex

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:37 pm

another_being wrote::coffee: Cheers, I'm having a cup right now, raising it to you.


Damn I'm out of lumps. :PP:
Mijn Oude Vriend uit de woestijn begrijpt geen Nederlands. <3
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6623
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: vortex

Postby Guo Gu on Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:36 am

lumps for sale... lumps for sale.... anyone? anyone?
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.com/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
User avatar
Guo Gu
Teacher
 
Posts: 1300
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:52 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL USA

PreviousNext

Return to Practical Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest