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5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:23 pm

Chrisd wrote:From what I understand, no sexual abuse could come from one who is free of self-delusion, or any genuine practitioner of Buddhism for that matter.


That is what we like to think, or understand.
But there are those who have experienced zillion of little and big awakenings, but not being free from the vasanas thus not liberated. Another thing to keep in mind is that getting "dharma transmission" does not mean anything other then such one is qualified to teach, again for the record, "free from self-delusion" has nothing to do with the person, even one who sees there is no such thing as a person has still got to work on uprooting the vasanas, that's why most 'awakened ones' after their awakening, took up to 5-20 years sitting in caves so to speak to deepen their practise/understanding, and never made a conscious decision to become a teacher or have students. Some liberated ones will never teach nor will they ever be heared of, never be dependent on a teacher or sangha. ps Chris, everything we know or understand is knowledge derived from outside of you, observe what "from what I understand" means, it's just hearsay :)
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby Chrisd on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:13 pm

OK thx.
When Buddha knew that he had attained final liberation and the house would not be built again, he was done. Was that the point where he was done with all the vasanas? If he would still be bound by the vasanas, then he would have another rebirth?
I try to add stuff like from what I understand also to remind myself that it's just my perspective, else I get all attached and stuff :PP:
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:26 pm

Chrisd wrote:if he would still be bound by the vasanas, then he would have another rebirth?

Chris, just like the question of "is sexual abuse still possible if one etc ..." this question too is false,
and if you ask false questions you will always receive false answers. ;)

We like to create stories and lock up the world in a mental picture which is due to our desires and fears,
Do you understand why the question is false? seeing the false as false is true practise.
On what does the question depend? :heya:

I try to add stuff like from what I understand also to remind myself that it's just my perspective, else I get all attached and stuff :PP:

No dont get attached and stuff, that's the opposite of what the masters do! :PP:
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby oryoki on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:49 pm

5. It Disconnects Us From The Pain of Others
-----
I think when we engage in compassion-baiting, we re-harden our hearts. Maybe it’s because we fear being touched by the raw pain of others, so we ask them to temper it for us.

I hope and truly believe that dharma can help us respond to harm and hurt without demanding that everyone conform to our own ideas of enlightened manner. While taking responsibility for our own actions, for our own aspirations to inner freedom, can we also soften and make room for the outcry of others?

That reminded me of a conversation which I had once with a Tibetan Lama on the subject of hurt and pain. His comment was: “Buddhist share happiness, but keep pain to themselves. Sharing hurt and paint is more of a Christian custom.” I, as a Buddhist, agreed with him. I still do. I make room for outcry of Christians but not for Buddhists.
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby Carol on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:57 pm

Avolokiteshvara Bodhisattva -- the one who hears the cries of the world.

Avalokiteshvara.jpg
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:57 pm

Huifeng Shi,

I think that's the case, and the situation, much of the time.

But, let's see: I think that the Buddhist Peace Fellowship (BPF) is an organization meant to train and channel practitioners in some sorts of social-change activities and initiatives, as a method of practice. As such, it takes (accepts) all comers, I think. One can be newly established, or long established, either at depth, or just entering at some fresh level, I suppose.

But, what about the Writers?

I thought that writers in the name of BPF are usually pretty "seasoned". Maybe this has changed. I think the print journal was pretty good when I read it from time to time, years or decades ago. Carol's post gave me the first incentive ever to look at their web postings. I'm still not motivated to join the ranks. We have had a small chapter of BPF here in this town. And our local sangha was the first affiliate sangha of Robert Aitken Roshi's Diamond Sangha (I'm no longer a member there, after 24 years or so).

I think I let compassion shine or rain-out on a daily basis in everyday life, not under an umbrella (of an organization). It's practice, or a part of practice, and seems entirely natural by now and is not an undertaking or an effort, and does not need marshaling, nor does it require collaboration or collusion (though always welcome). :lol2:

I think we can all encourage each other in practice, TO practice, and can give each other space to do it. I see no "compassion-baiting" operating in my neighborhood. I barely understand what it means. And I maintain that the author does not mean "compassion". It may all be due to some "holier-than-thou" post-deconstructionist-false-Christian habits that still pollute some people's air, ...or, it's just Human, in the worst sense.

Aw-w, long-winded, sorry (speaking of air).

In Gassho,

--Joe

Huifeng wrote:So, when situations occur, the words come out, but genuine care for the other(s) may still be lacking.~~Huifeng
"The abundance of Nature is not a matter of its 'providing' ". -- William James, c. 1901.

"I'd like to say thank-you on behalf of the band and ourselves, and I hope we passed the audition". -- John Lennon, clowning on the Let It Be album (1970) recording session.
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby Kojip on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:18 am

Chrisd wrote:I think the people that abuse would rather shroud themselves in mistery rather than openly claiming a thing as being free of self-delusion.


Hi Chris, I was speaking of those who work with the abused, not abusers. "Compassion baiting" among Buddhists doing social work. sorry for not stating that clearly.
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby partofit22 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:27 am

oryoki wrote:
5. It Disconnects Us From The Pain of Others
-----
I think when we engage in compassion-baiting, we re-harden our hearts. Maybe it’s because we fear being touched by the raw pain of others, so we ask them to temper it for us.

I hope and truly believe that dharma can help us respond to harm and hurt without demanding that everyone conform to our own ideas of enlightened manner. While taking responsibility for our own actions, for our own aspirations to inner freedom, can we also soften and make room for the outcry of others?

That reminded me of a conversation which I had once with a Tibetan Lama on the subject of hurt and pain. His comment was: “Buddhist share happiness, but keep pain to themselves. Sharing hurt and paint is more of a Christian custom.” I, as a Buddhist, agreed with him. I still do. I make room for outcry of Christians but not for Buddhists.


Did the Tibetan Lama suggest not to create a space for Buddhists who speak of their pain or is that something you chose to do on your own?
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby oryoki on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:08 am

partofit22:
Did the Tibetan Lama suggest not to create a space for Buddhists who speak of their pain or is that something you chose to do on your own?


He left it to my decision. In the end it is always about me anyway. If I get no sympathy, help from others, then do I get stuck waiting for Avalokiteshvara to wave his magic wand of compassion? … I like this story: http://deoxy.org/koan/6
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby partofit22 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:59 am

oryoki wrote:
partofit22:
Did the Tibetan Lama suggest not to create a space for Buddhists who speak of their pain or is that something you chose to do on your own?


He left it to my decision. In the end it is always about me anyway. If I get no sympathy, help from others, then do I get stuck waiting for Avalokiteshvara to wave his magic wand of compassion? … I like this story: http://deoxy.org/koan/6


I like it too- :)
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:48 pm

There is no Avalokiteshvara or magic wand. There is the possibility of compassion for ourselves and others that arises naturally. Compassion is not about sympathy. When compassion arises naturally, there is no separation, we feel the suffering. In the deepest sense, we are helping as if it was us suffering with no sense of obligation or false egoic agenda. The mystery of compassion simply responds to what is needed. Nothing added.
Not last night,
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby partofit22 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:17 pm

So compassion isn't any fixed action and being uncomfortable with suffering, of any living thing, as well as not providing them/it a space with which to share it and or turning away from it/them are also or could be viewed as compassionate acts too? Something about that seems off ..
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:51 pm

Teresa, I didn't say that, not at all. Hearing the cries of the world is deeply feeling. Compassion is not a thing, it lives in us. It's just that the space is wide open.

What do you mean by fixed action? We offer what is needed, truly needed, not what we think about it.
Not last night,
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:06 pm

PS... I'd burn that old monks house down too .... after all those years all he can think about is following rules? .... a tree growing on a rock! Being a good monk! He had 84,000 possibilities and all he can do is go on rote... and proud of it! My interpretation, pride is fixed.
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:48 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:PS... I'd burn that old monks house down too ....


Ah the mystery of compassion! :lol2:

Linda, did you just really (dream-really) projected a sense of individuality into a story and imagined what you would or would not have done? :PP:
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby partofit22 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:51 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:PS... I'd burn that old monks house down too .... after all those years all he can think about is following rules? .... a tree growing on a rock! Being a good monk! He had 84,000 possibilities and all he can do is go on rote... and proud of it! My interpretation, pride is fixed.


Image
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:02 pm

:PP: what else could it be. me thinks.... as soon as I get over myself ...

on the other hand, Buddha gave up his house, the structure. The old woman had something....
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby partofit22 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:14 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:Teresa, I didn't say that, not at all. Hearing the cries of the world is deeply feeling. Compassion is not a thing, it lives in us. It's just that the space is wide open.

What do you mean by fixed action? We offer what is needed, truly needed, not what we think about it.


At the moment, I see what the author is referring to- I appreciate her effort to communicate, in her own words, what she thinks she sees- Others may or may not see it too- She may be wrong, way off base and I might be too! Along with others- But for now .. I think she struck a nerve .. by pointing to how people can act when uncomfortable with suffering-
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby Carol on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:19 pm

partofit22 wrote:
Linda Anderson wrote:Teresa, I didn't say that, not at all. Hearing the cries of the world is deeply feeling. Compassion is not a thing, it lives in us. It's just that the space is wide open.

What do you mean by fixed action? We offer what is needed, truly needed, not what we think about it.


At the moment, I see what the author is referring to- I appreciate her effort to communicate, in her own words, what she thinks she sees- Others may or may not see it too- She may be wrong, way off base and I might be too! Along with others- But for now .. I think she struck a nerve .. by pointing to how people can act when uncomfortable with suffering-


I see it too, and greatly appreciate it.
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
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Re: 5 Big Problems With Compassion Baiting

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:19 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:on the other hand, Buddha gave up his house, the structure. The old woman had something....


Now we're mixing two stories, I like you better when you set stuff ablaze. :PP:
PS is this a bit like how bedtime stories for American kids go... after every story they're asked...
"what would Jesus do?" :lol2:

Poor kids, hope they all get reborn a Dutchy :PP:
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