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False teacher in Holland

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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby unsui on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:58 pm

Guo Gu wrote:don't know this person and i'm not defending him, but i'm sure some people have benefited from his teachings; if no one has benefited, he wouldn't be teaching.

things are not black and white. as meido says, "certifications and titles are no guarantee" for anything. it's like in the lotus sutra when the buddha said that devadatta will be a buddha! :lol2: or in the avatamsaka wherein manjusri told sudhana to study with a killer. :lol2: what needs to be done should be done, but with an open mind.

Benefit or no, he has willfully lied to people and given others - at least 30-40 people - permission to teach as Zen teachers. There may be good that he has done, but he has also done harm, at least in the sphere of doing good and harm. Why not just be honest and offer teachings from an open heart? I'm sure that if he did that, then no-one would even lift an eyebrow.

Of course, he, too, is a buddha, just like anyone else and, of course, we all grow in our interactions with all beings. So, please instruct me what I should be doing differently.

I have understood what Meido wrote in another way than you seem to understand him:
Of course we know that certifications and titles are no guarantee that someone has continued to correctly cultivate the Zen way and not "gone off the tracks" (thus the necessity to carefully examine one's teacher for several years before committing to him/her). But we also know that someone falsely claiming these things has never succeeded in grasping that way at all.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby Guo Gu on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:12 pm

unsui, do you harbor any aversion toward him?
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby unsui on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:34 pm

Guo Gu wrote:unsui, do you harbor any aversion toward him?

Searching honestly, there is sadness about some of the consequences of his actions and maybe some frustration when I meet people who Facebook about practicing Zen with his firm. I don't harbor feelings towards him.

I posted these press releases at the request of a Dutch acquaintance, since I knew about this situation. Was this improper or inappropriate, in your point of view?
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Re: False teacher in the Netherlands

Postby PeterB on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:12 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
unsui wrote:I did try to correct it, but ended up doing something stupid. So, I will stay on track here and NOT use anything but the Netherlands from now on, if this is the most correct. But, unlike in English, we just have one name for your country, and that is "Holland". What is wrong with this name? Is it like saying "Hinayana"?


:lol2:

No, what's wrong with the name is that it is not a name for the country, it's just a region/state.
Would be the same if I'd open up a title called "false teacher in Nordjylland" (and think it means the whole of Denmark) or say "false teacher in Texas" while the teacher is from Nevada or something.
So when meeting someone from the USA I would call him a Texan and think it's the whole country, and when meeting someone from Denmark calling someone a Nordjyllander (-er is probably wrong)
Here's a youtube thingy to explain it.
Usually only unedicated people (no offense) call it Holland.
Holland vs the Netherlands

p.s. Nordjyllander is a region I believe and not a state, not sure if you have states or if it's the same as a region. Holland (north and South) is a state or province, not a region. So apologies if I mistake Danish regions for states, I'm not that educated about Denmark, although I can probably name way more Danish football players then you ever can :lol2:

I guarantee you 100% that if you held a poll among EDUCATED Brits the vast majority would identify Amsterdam as the capital of Holland.
That is what The Netherlands is called in the UK.
Just as I would bet that a majority of Dutch people assume that London is the capital of Britain.
Why in any case it would matter to someone who claims not to exist is another topic entirely.
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Geography, OT

Postby unsui on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:54 pm

PeterB wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:
unsui wrote:I did try to correct it, but ended up doing something stupid. So, I will stay on track here and NOT use anything but the Netherlands from now on, if this is the most correct. But, unlike in English, we just have one name for your country, and that is "Holland". What is wrong with this name? Is it like saying "Hinayana"?


:lol2:

No, what's wrong with the name is that it is not a name for the country, it's just a region/state.
Would be the same if I'd open up a title called "false teacher in Nordjylland" (and think it means the whole of Denmark) or say "false teacher in Texas" while the teacher is from Nevada or something.
So when meeting someone from the USA I would call him a Texan and think it's the whole country, and when meeting someone from Denmark calling someone a Nordjyllander (-er is probably wrong)
Here's a youtube thingy to explain it.
Usually only unedicated people (no offense) call it Holland.
Holland vs the Netherlands

p.s. Nordjyllander is a region I believe and not a state, not sure if you have states or if it's the same as a region. Holland (north and South) is a state or province, not a region. So apologies if I mistake Danish regions for states, I'm not that educated about Denmark, although I can probably name way more Danish football players then you ever can :lol2:

I guarantee you 100% that if you held a poll among EDUCATED Brits the vast majority would identify Amsterdam as the capital of Holland.
That is what The Netherlands is called in the UK.
Just as I would bet that a majority of Dutch people assume that London is the capital of Britain.
Why in any case it would matter to someone who claims not to exist is another topic entirely.

Well, let's see. Someone from Nordjylland is called "nordjyde". London is the capital of England --- but then there is Britain and the United Kingdom. These two must be just like the Dutch case. Denmark is a kingdom, too, with the Faroe Islands and Greenland included.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby PeterB on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:14 pm

Precisely unsui...The political entity is the U.K. but is comprised of England ( capital London ) Wales ( capital Cardiff ) Scotland ( capital Edinburgh ) Northern Ireland ( capital Belfast )...then there is the British Isles which is a geographical not political entity...and Great Britain..which is a kind of poetic name.
Even we get confused :)

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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby Michaeljc on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:30 pm

I feel there should be some kind of control over these topics where individuals are named and reported on. This is a Buddhist forum that beams right around the world. What is the Buddhist way of dealing with such processes?

Firstly the OP must be very clinical reporting of documented evidence only, with no opinion included. Ideally the OP should be deemed appropriate by an independent panel before publishing. At one point the accused should be contacted and invited to respond. If they do not respond the thread should be blocked, in my opinion. Even when an accused responds the topic should be blocked very early in the proceedings with a simple explanation from the monitors.

I found the way the recent topic involving sexual misconduct very disturbing as it turned into a form of vigilantly. Issues such as rape and assault were openly discussed on that thread which had an individuals name in its topic title. What disturbed me most was the popularity of that thread.

Ideally all reporting on individuals should go through a specific topic where it is vetted before publishing as is the case with ‘Ask a Teacher”
I am not defending the here accused. I had not even heard of him before. I am defending basic human rights and skilful means. In the children's playground or on an international forum, its still the same stuff. The principles of justice cannot be compromised, but they come at a cost. Sometimes the bad boy gets away.

This is the way I see it, now and for ever

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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby unsui on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:02 pm

Kojip wrote:
unsui wrote:
Anders wrote:thansk for posting this.

Rients was my first exposure to any Buddhist teacher of any sort when I was only 17. Needless to say, I was rather put off when I learned he was selling Zen master certificates to business people after a brief 'training' period.

We had problems with him and his "group" in the old days, when Buddhistisk Forum existed. He never communicated anything about his background back then - all of a sudden, he was there, a Zen master teaching in Odense. Then, one day, he seemed to just up and disappear. His students were left in the dark.

Now, his Zenmind spreads so-called Zen practice within the framework of corporate Denmark. I think this is worse than the mindfulness trend, since people believe they are getting zen training. They hold "sesshins", they sit in a "zendo" and use "zafus" and an "inkin" - all very "authentic", so it DOES seem convincing. :cry:


Hi. It sounds a bit like this... http://bigmind.org/ . The difference being that one is a legitimate teacher and one is not. Is "Big Mind" Zen training because the teacher is legitimate?

Gassho Richard

Both organizations are similar in being commercial - and just from reading the websites, I wouldn't imagine that either one or the other is Zen training at all, although Zenmind claims this.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby unsui on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:35 pm

Michaeljc wrote:I feel there should be some kind of control over these topics where individuals are named and reported on. This is a Buddhist forum that beams right around the world. What is the Buddhist way of dealing with such processes?

Firstly the OP must be very clinical reporting of documented evidence only, with no opinion included. Ideally the OP should be deemed appropriate by an independent panel before publishing. At one point the accused should be contacted and invited to respond. If they do not respond the thread should be blocked, in my opinion. Even when an accused responds the topic should be blocked very early in the proceedings with a simple explanation from the monitors.

I found the way the recent topic involving sexual misconduct very disturbing as it turned into a form of vigilantly. Issues such as rape and assault were openly discussed on that thread which had an individuals name in its topic title. What disturbed me most was the popularity of that thread.

Ideally all reporting on individuals should go through a specific topic where it is vetted before publishing as is the case with ‘Ask a Teacher”
I am not defending the here accused. I had not even heard of him before. I am defending basic human rights and skilful means. In the children's playground or on an international forum, its still the same stuff. The principles of justice cannot be compromised, but they come at a cost. Sometimes the bad boy gets away.

This is the way I see it, now and for ever

m

I had hoped the OP(s), which are published press releases from the office of Sokun Tsushimoto Roshi and which include all parties' viewpoints, would be considered clinical and well-documented. If you have issue with this, contact the moderators. I will recuse myself from the discussion. I offer no opinion in the OP and do relate my relationship to this case.
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Re: Geography, OT

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:16 am

unsui wrote:Well, let's see. Someone from Nordjylland is called "nordjyde". London is the capital of England --- but then there is Britain and the United Kingdom. These two must be just like the Dutch case. Denmark is a kingdom, too, with the Faroe Islands and Greenland included.


No, all I'm simply asking you (and any foreigner who I run across) is to call it the Netherlands,
because there is no country called Holland. That's pretty much it :)
You call also say Nederland, just as I always in conversation call it Suomi instead of Finland,
Just saying the correct English term is the Netherlands.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby Kojip on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:55 am

You can call Canada... Quebec or Ontario, or "that woodlot", or beaver lodge, if you like. Just don't call us moose ridden.. we're touchy about that. :lol2:

But semi-seriously, I didn't know anyone here was a "foreigner".
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:12 am

Guo Gu wrote:don't know this person and i'm not defending him, but i'm sure some people have benefited from his teachings; if no one has benefited, he wouldn't be teaching.


Since I'm not the dharma police I couldn't give a rats ass so to speak (excuse my French)
Just in my home town alone I know at least 5 people who lead Zazen groups,
although none of them are official teachers (in the official sense) they are just called as group leaders of zazen,
one can sit practically for free. This case just attracts a lot of new-age people, who're always bouncing around between religions and groups, it's all for commercially based, not to help anyone.
Believe me what he calls "Zen" over here is just plain bullcrap, again I don't mind at all.
Just saying it is so :PP:
I could have recognized this as a ten year old, but as I said it attracts a lot of "spiritual seekers"
and with that I mean those who're looking to make their ID into anything, wise, loving, enlightened etc.
Basically the same as the episode in South Park where the whole town started buying eco-cars which only caused a destruction of smug clouds because they bought it to make them feel better about themselves. (if that makes any sense) Again I don't give an arse, but when a someone calls something Zen Buddhism,
while it is not, then I simply state so. One can be a "Zen Master" here as fast as one can can complete a Reiki course and get a Masters degree, although luckily that hype ended here about 10 years ago.
Not saying no one benefits from it, but when a label of Zen is put on it just to get a bigger pay check, I don't take them serious, if others do it is their responsibility. So called victims usually put te sticks in their hands (no offense) I never met one of his students who actually practises Zen, not that I mind,
they are usually kind of loving people, but that benefit can be gotten with some insight without the whole Zen label, and basically not for 300 euros and beyond
As for unsui making this topic... well I could have made it years ago, but I'm not interested if someone lies about their credentials or not (meaning it's their thingy) just saying I don't need a bunch of paperwork,
To know one's religion you have to simply observe how they act, in the flesh that is.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:14 am

Kojip wrote:You can call Canada... Quebec or Ontario, or "that woodlot", or beaver lodge, if you like. Just don't call us moose ridden.. we're touchy about that. :lol2:

But semi-seriously, I didn't know anyone here was a "foreigner".
:Namaste:


:lol2:

To me, if you're not from Dutchyland you're a foreigner.
But only on paperwork, just as I'm a "human being" only on paperwork :PP:
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:42 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDeAVGny ... dded#at=26

btw about Barney is just bull... after their encounter he had the worst period of his career and a complete breakdown :lol2:

btw if anyone needs his Dutchy vids on youtube translated (sesshins etc) you know who to ask
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... artQQFSh2I
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:48 am

Kojip wrote:You can call Canada... Quebec or Ontario, or "that woodlot", or beaver lodge, if you like. Just don't call us moose ridden.. we're touchy about that. :lol2:

But semi-seriously, I didn't know anyone here was a "foreigner".
:Namaste:


Careful now, I have to admit my love for Mina Moose... but she lived in Wyoming. How can you have too many?? Just give the guy his The Netherlands.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:08 am

Oh my, there are many so-called false teachers. I've written about this so many times that I forget. Fortunately for me, my karma steers clear eventually even when I think otherwise. It is indeed a rocky road and some are lost. Fortunately, for me, I have somehow gone behind the lines, I've heard zen teachers tell me that you can learn even from a bad teacher, I've seen them lie and diminish others in service to themselves. I've seen healers watch out for my projections and illusions side-by-side with helping them pack their orange condums for their weaknesses for others. I've seen medicine men descend into the dark looking for a fight while they were the most trusted healers for me .... no hypocrisy there. I just don't know anymore.

If we measure with ethics and commandments, most of us will fail... eventually the holdouts do too... like Jim Baker, etc. I don't know what it means to represent oneself with credentials when there are none. I also know that there are many teachers who teach with a call who have no credentials who are indeed teachers. I have no idea why he would represent himself as a zen teacher, where there are so many more options available.... except that he values validation.... or he deeply connects with what is his regardless of the formalities. Who has he harmed?

None of what I say is meant to bypass the need for sheila samadhi (ethics) ... just how do we define it. And, how do we see through it. And how do we get real about what we want, deeply want. It may take some exploration to get beneath our ideas.
Last edited by Linda Anderson on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby Sevidal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:22 am

So who will decide who is a false Teacher. Does that mean the one saying that the Teacher is false is not False himself? It seems it so familiar like in Christianity almost every ones church is the true church, the others are not true church. They are the true christians but the others are not true christians. They know their bible very well and their's is the true word of God but others are not.
It is so familiar because you can hear it almost everywhere.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:32 am

Sevi,
We are the ones who decide for ourselves who is useful to us... that is not easy, sometimes others can help us, but not always. The discussion about who is false is beyond our reality if we can be honest... we can't really know. Just trust your sensibilties, don't discount anything to reason. And, if you get caught, learn from it.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby unsui on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:39 am

Sevidal wrote:So who will decide who is a false Teacher.

A teacher can be effective or not. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "false". I will request that this topic's title be changed to something more appropriate, since I couldn't find out how to do that myself.

I just wished to point out that a man who has said that he is a Zen master in the Netherlands, having received transmission within a specific lineage, who says he spent years in a Japanese monastery, who says that he is authorized by a specific Zen master to appoint Zen teachers and other Zen masters and give jukai, and who has built a commercial organization under the guise of it being authentic Zen training has been lying. The people who were said to train him and give him inka shomei have recently been informed of this man's work and have denied that these things have occurred.

What one does with this info is up to one's self. I myself felt concern about the situation and posted it here at the request of a Dutch acquaintance. I am not interested in a discussion of principles of "false" vs. "authentic" in this context --- that is a whole other subject (just like geography :lol2: ) and is often discussed in the forum.
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Re: False teacher in Holland

Postby Guo Gu on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:26 am

unsui wrote:
Guo Gu wrote:unsui, do you harbor any aversion toward him?

Searching honestly, there is sadness about some of the consequences of his actions (a woman having a nervous breakdown, for example) and maybe some frustration when I meet people who Facebook about practicing Zen with his firm. I don't harbor feelings towards him.


unsui, i feel sad for him. you're kind, know right from wrong, and truth from lie. you posted to help those to be more careful. but the person in question don't truly know the difference (or enough that he cares when he lies). in our heart, no need to separate victims and perpetrator. yet, what needs to be done needs to be done for all in this situation.

but as practitioners, what is true, false, good, harm?--this situation is a genjo koan where judgments have no place.

be well,
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