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The Field of Spiritual Experience

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The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Thus-gone on Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:31 am

In Zen we often talk about this event called kensho, which translates into "seeing nature." We may also talk toss around such words as enlightenment, opening, satori, peak experience, and so on. And we may refer to such schematics as the 10 ox-herding pictures, 52 bodhisattva stages, 4 paths of enlightenment, etc.

The more I read from various spiritual disciplines and dialogue with other practitioners, however, such words and models become increasingly less clear. It seems to me that there is a vast field of diverse spiritual experiences rather than a single schematic wherein a certain insight is made and then deepened progressively. Some experiences are fleeting, some effect permanent changes. Many experiences are linked to different areas of the subtle body, and not all of them have the same content or implications. There are experiences of non-self, experiences of no-self, experiences of I AM, insights into emptiness, or non-dual, or spontaneous perfection, and so on. There is one-mind, no-mind, jhana, samadhi/prajna, nirvikalpa samadhi, rigpa. There are chakra openings, kundalini awakenings, transformations of Jing into Shen, openings of the microcosmic orbit, rainbow body realisations. Mystical union, Christ consciousness, the womb of the universe, expansion and contraction.

Obviously, all of these experiences are linked. They are all in the same general field of contemplative experience. As regards my own practice, I experienced a shift in consciousness about a year ago that has totally transformed my life. Suddenly the world was not outside of me but inside my own mind - and there was no "me" separate from the flowing, lucid and beautiful activity of mind. It hasn't gone away, and it wouldn't make any sense for it to - it was an insight. But I have no idea what people are talking about when they mention emptiness, or true nature, or the Eternal Witness, or the Zero, the Absolute, etc. And I certainly haven't passed my first koan yet!

This lines up with a lot of things that I've read from other practitioners. And I'm wondering: in this diverse field of experience, how does Zen situate itself? What is the "nature" that is seen? Is there just one certain kind of insight that is deepened, or a whole realm of insight that is explored? I'm asking what any practitioners more experienced than myself think about this.
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby sunyavadi on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:52 am

Thus Gone wrote:Suddenly the world was not outside of me but inside my own mind - and there was no "me" separate from the flowing, lucid and beautiful activity of mind. It hasn't gone away, and it wouldn't make any sense for it to - it was an insight. But I have no idea what people are talking about when they mention emptiness, or true nature, or the Eternal Witness, or the Zero, the Absolute, etc.


Do your ears not hear what your mouth has spoken? That is what they are talking about, insofar as it can be talked about. What are you expecting? Maybe the problem only is that you have some expectation of what 'it' ought to be.

My 'experience' or 'realization' was similar to that. That was in 1982.
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby creature on Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:57 pm

Thus-gone wrote:But I have no idea what people are talking about when they mention emptiness, or true nature, or the Eternal Witness, or the Zero, the Absolute, etc. And I certainly haven't passed my first koan yet!


To be honest with you, I have no idea what people are talking about when they mention blue, or red. I have to assume that they are referring to something similar enough to my mode of experience that I can understand and relate to it. Even moreso when they are using various words for something that goes beyond description.
"What is inherent in you is presently active and presently functioning, and need not be sought after, need not be put in order, need not be practiced or proven.
All that is required is to trust it once and for all."
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Quiet Heart on Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:44 am

:)
Well since you asked (you did ask didn't you?) here's my first experience.
Not sure what it meant, or if it was some kind of an "authentic" experience .... but anyhow.
I was riding in a taxi, going by a park area. The early morning Sun was shining on the trees.
I saw the Sun on the trees, the shadow the trees cast on the ground, and "that place were the shadow became light, and the light became shadow".
And at that very same time I realised that Light, Shadow, and "that place where Light and Shadow became One" were
not seperate ... but all one thing with myself and my true nature.
Sounds like rekigious babble doesn't it?
That's why we tend to NOT talk about such things .... they are deeply personal experiences.
But I'm feeling charitable today, so I'll chance talking about it.
:)
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby ed blanco on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:26 pm

What has shaken me in Buddhism and Soto Zen in particular is the realization of INTERDEPENDENCE, of the bond between living things. I can sense a sameness in the threes and birds and snakes, say Nature, outside and me sitting in the yard. It easily, clearly, extends to the beings, specially them humans, going by, being this and that, close by or around the world. Lately the sense of it not being one with me, nor two, has gotten stronger. I really feel not alone and, even more, how my problems are so the same as other's troubles are to them. This samenes brings no shock, or deep experience per se, but a running sense of samenes easily identifiable when moments arise in dual tension between me and others.
I'ts easy to see what the phrase 'take refuge' means now. The Dharma is no longer a proposition for me. It seems to be the very life in me and around me, the same and not two.
At the end of the BRINGING DOGEN DOWN TO EARTH Conference here at FIU, in Miami, Florida, the floor was opened for questions to the panel. Someone asked "What was Dogen's most lasting gift to Buddhism?" Silence followed. Okamura-roshi rose emphatically saying "Sangha. The lasting legacy of DogenZenji is the force he gives to the Sangha."
I paraphrase.
It is in this subtle, and at times not so subtle, interrelation that I see the living Buddha and Dharma.
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Kim on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:22 pm

"Field of spiritual experience" has many things and layers in it. Awakening to the nature of the Self is one thing, like an on/off-switch but still beyond that there are many things concerned which different systems and traditions explain in their own way or don't :)

Kenneth Folk, American Buddhist teacher whose background is mostly theravada buddhism, made a point when he said that even after years and years of full time practice many meditators may not even have the basics right. That they just spend all the time sitting doing something else, thinking, in subconscious thought-emotion-streams, or not doing the technique right. How to make sure that all of that precious time and effort is not wasted? The answer is simple: The teacher should pass on experiences to the students.

This method of passing spiritual energy or experiences of various meditative states and depths to students is used in many tantric lineages, both in Buddhism (buddha dharma) and Hinduism (sanatana dharma). I guess it also takes place in any tradition where there is direct meetings with the student and the teacher but then it probably is somewhat vague, when it comes to understanding the "field of spiritual experience". It was for me at least in that setting.

Ideally, the student should receive an experience from the teacher to begin with. Then he or she wouldn't have to struggle to find a path in the jungle because they would already know where the path is and could just start to tread along with their own practice. I find it extremely sad that many spiritually hard-working people who put so much time, effort and energy into practice manage to get so few crops. A valid teacher can assist the student so much by passing of spiritual experiences which will make the path so much more enjoyable and easier for the student. My honest opinion.
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Anirukta on Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:39 pm

Kim wrote:Ideally, the student should receive an experience from the teacher to begin with.

<snip>

A valid teacher can assist the student so much by passing of spiritual experiences ...

Hello Kim.

In all due respect, I would disagree that the student should receive an experience from whomever they could be, more so in the Zen Buddhist way, and this way [i.e. Zen] is hereby discussed.

As I see it, one has to arrive at the "right way to do things" on their own, and if this is done with the help of their teacher, this help is by no means "passing of spiritual experiences", but rather "pointing", "direct pointing" if you wish, or "showing" the right way -- skillfully.

Further, if there is a "validation" or a "verification" of the experience of the student -- this would be possible, but only the one who has the true eye to see would be able to do it.

But no one in Zen Buddhism would say that one can "receive an experience" from the other.
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Meido on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:56 pm

Kim and Anirukta, I think you both speak to important points.

Of course a teacher can't "give" anything to a student, since what the student recognizes is not something previously lacking.

That recognition can be brought about through various means, however. I don't disagree that this is a valid approach, and I would in fact argue that it is the general approach of Zen - at least as I have experienced.

One of my teachers said clearly, "The [initial] purpose of the Zen master is to cause the student to have kensho." In some cases we might well say that the student "caught" or "got" something: a situation is created in which the student comes to directly grasp the teacher's state of mind as his/her own. This does not mean that something new was received. But we might say it crudely: "direct pointing" in Zen is not just a general principle, but something that manifests between two human beings.

When a teacher's clear, intuitive perception (kan) of what means to use is combined with a great vitality or energy (kiai), a wondrous (myo) result can manifest. In such cases we don't need to worry about who gave or didn't give something to someone. The content of the experience/recognition resolves itself.

Of course, all the conditions - the student's "ripeness", for example - are always relevant. And it goes without saying that there are teachers who may not have such ability, and students who may lack the qualities for this approach.

So in some ways I would wish to combine your two posts and say that there are no fixed methods, but there are many methods. Generally speaking, both teacher and student "peck" at the shell. The "right way to do things" is certainly important. We can also say that lacking the "pecking" from either side, the chick's chances are likely to be greatly reduced. And finally, I think it bears constant repeating that the real hard work only starts after all of this.

~ Meido
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Kim on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:09 am

Anirukta wrote:But no one in Zen Buddhism would say that one can "receive an experience" from the other.


Yes, I know that.

My bad, by the way, I mistakenly looked that this thread was in the Other traditions-section but it wasn't. So excuse me :)
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Anirukta on Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:38 pm

Kim wrote:
Anirukta wrote:But no one in Zen Buddhism would say that one can "receive an experience" from the other.


Yes, I know that.

My bad, by the way, I mistakenly looked that this thread was in the Other traditions-section but it wasn't. So excuse me :)

Excuse me too, Baba Kim, as now Meido is saying quite mysterious things. :)
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Carol on Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:01 pm

Meido wrote:Kim and Anirukta, I think you both speak to important points.

Of course a teacher can't "give" anything to a student, since what the student recognizes is not something previously lacking.

That recognition can be brought about through various means, however. I don't disagree that this is a valid approach, and I would in fact argue that it is the general approach of Zen - at least as I have experienced.

One of my teachers said clearly, "The [initial] purpose of the Zen master is to cause the student to have kensho." In some cases we might well say that the student "caught" or "got" something: a situation is created in which the student comes to directly grasp the teacher's state of mind as his/her own. This does not mean that something new was received. But we might say it crudely: "direct pointing" in Zen is not just a general principle, but something that manifests between two human beings.

When a teacher's clear, intuitive perception (kan) of what means to use is combined with a great vitality or energy (kiai), a wondrous (myo) result can manifest. In such cases we don't need to worry about who gave or didn't give something to someone. The content of the experience/recognition resolves itself.

Of course, all the conditions - the student's "ripeness", for example - are always relevant. And it goes without saying that there are teachers who may not have such ability, and students who may lack the qualities for this approach.

So in some ways I would wish to combine your two posts and say that there are no fixed methods, but there are many methods. Generally speaking, both teacher and student "peck" at the shell. The "right way to do things" is certainly important. We can also say that lacking the "pecking" from either side, the chick's chances are likely to be greatly reduced. And finally, I think it bears constant repeating that the real hard work only starts after all of this.

~ Meido


Yes. This is something many of us are reluctant to talk about. Causes and conditions are important in kensho/awakening. There is the student's ripeness ... and there is the teacher's energy and clarity. There are three teachers I've personally met who had this quality/energy that was extraordinary. My experiences in their presence were not ordinary. Some juice, for lack of a better word, entered the relationship that shifted my state of mind into some kind of mutually recognized/inhabited field.

I've also personally known teachers who didn't have this quality/energy, but who were still extremely helpful to me in other ways.

And it must be acknowledged that there are prateyeka Buddhas whose "causes and conditions" lead them to awaken on their own. But it is said they are quite rare.
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby creature on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:09 am

What a great discussion!

One thing piqued my curiosity, since it seems to have not been entirely covered so far.

Meido wrote:One of my teachers said clearly, "The [initial] purpose of the Zen master is to cause the student to have kensho."


How does this relate to the sentiments of the Soto school? Could Nonin or anyone else put in a word or two?
"What is inherent in you is presently active and presently functioning, and need not be sought after, need not be put in order, need not be practiced or proven.
All that is required is to trust it once and for all."
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby lobster on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:57 pm

Meido wrote:And finally, I think it bears constant repeating that the real hard work only starts after all of this.

:dance:

Some polish before, some afterwards. Hard work is easy too. :heya:
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Nonin on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:27 pm

creature wrote:What a great discussion!

One thing piqued my curiosity, since it seems to have not been entirely covered so far.

Meido wrote:One of my teachers said clearly, "The [initial] purpose of the Zen master is to cause the student to have kensho."


How does this relate to the sentiments of the Soto school? Could Nonin or anyone else put in a word or two?

Zen Buddhist practice creates the conditions in which moments of insight may arise, and they are important. However, to experience these moments and strive for them is not the thrust of Soto Zen practice, nor is trying to cause them the purpose of a Soto Zen Master.

Also, kensho (seeing one's true nature), or "insight into one's true nature," is important, but in Soto Zen we are taught to learn from it, let it go, and continue to practice. In Soto Zen, practice and enlightenment are one and the same. When we practice zazen or manifest zazen mind (the mind that abides nowhere) in everyday life, we are realizing enlightenment.

So, we don't practice and practice to realize something in the future. Our practice in and of itself is the realization of enlightenment. This is why Uchiyama-roshi said: "There are no enlightened people; only enlightened activity." And why Zen Master Dogen, the seminal Japanese Soto Zen teacher said: "Don't think that you'll necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment."

Hands palm-to-palm,

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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby ed blanco on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:04 pm

Thank you Nonin.
In gassho,
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Meido on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:02 am

Nonin wrote:Zen Buddhist practice creates the conditions in which moments of insight may arise, and they are important. However, to experience these moments and strive for them is not the thrust of Soto Zen practice, nor is trying to cause them the purpose of a Soto Zen Master.

Also, kensho (seeing one's true nature), or "insight into one's true nature," is important, but in Soto Zen we are taught to learn from it, let it go, and continue to practice. In Soto Zen, practice and enlightenment are one and the same. When we practice zazen or manifest zazen mind (the mind that abides nowhere) in everyday life, we are realizing enlightenment.

So, we don't practice and practice to realize something in the future. Our practice in and of itself is the realization of enlightenment. This is why Uchiyama-roshi said: "There are no enlightened people; only enlightened activity." And why Zen Master Dogen, the seminal Japanese Soto Zen teacher said: "Don't think that you'll necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment."


Thanks for that, Nonin.

Lest anyone misinterpret our posts as evidence of some Rinzai vs. Soto disconnect, I'd want to stress that viewing kensho as an experience or moment of insight to be sought after or craved is, of course, not something that any school of Zen would do, or take as the thrust of practice (if by "thrust" one means something upon which one stops, or takes as authentication of final fruition). There is no school of Zen which would hold up any experience or moment as something to which we should cling, since practice continues onward endlessly in the present.

Kensho is a recognition of one's nature, not something gained. Because we can speak of our existence as manifesting within so-called time in a manner that is unfixed and ceaselessly changing, we can when useful legitimately speak of practicing in order to clearly recognize that which what we do not currently.

There is no school of Zen, however, in which practice occurs anyplace other than this moment...as Hakuin said, we "become the beads" of our moment-by-moment existence, rather than practice upon a "string" of imagined past or future.

Because we can also speak of our existence as manifesting within so-called space as a coming together of various causes and conditions which are devoid of permanent self, we can when useful legitimately speak of the non-attainment of realization, the unity of practice and enlightenment, "there are no enlightened people, only enlightened activity" and so on.

There is no school of Zen, however, that would say that the unity of practice and enlightenment is manifested without practice, or that enlightened activity is self-arisen.

Within the "absolute now" of this body/mind at the intersection of time and space, the True Man of No Rank is recognized and clearly seen to be not other than Buddha. That is kensho, and that is what Zen teachers of all traditions are concerned with.

But if we over-stress the first aspect of time, we can fall into the mistake of fixating on differentiation. If we over-stress the aspect of space, we can fall into the mistake of fixating on non-differentiation. If I see a difference between the Soto and Rinzai schools, it would be that the methodologies of each could tend toward one or other of these two fixations, if not understood correctly.

As the purpose of all Zen is to clearly recognize one's nature - and, through what Hakuin calls "the continuation of correct consciousness", to integrate that recognition - I would therefore hold with my statement that the purpose of all Zen teachers is to cause the student to have such recognition (kensho), thereby allowing each to actually experience the truth of Nonin's words "Our practice in and of itself is the realization of enlightenment."

~ Meido
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby ed blanco on Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:21 pm

Thanks you too Meido.
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Nonin on Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:40 pm

Yes, Meido, thanks for your post; it's a wonderful statement that gets to the core of our practice. There is no Rinzai vs. Soto disconnect. Any differences are a matter of style rather than substance, and these differences also occur in style from Soto Zen Buddhist teacher to Soto Zen Buddhist teacher and from Rinzai Zen Buddhist teacher to Rinzai Zen Buddhist teacher.

AZTA (American Zen Teachers Association) members come from Soto, Rinzai, Diamond Sangha, Kwan Um, Chogye, and other Zen Buddhist traditions (my apologies to any tradition I've left out). By meeting with each other once a year, we've come to realize that we have more in common than in difference and that we are all dharma brothers and sisters practicing Zen Buddhism no matter what our group affiliation. Also, "Zen" is a Japanese word, but it has come to be a generic term in the West. It has come to be universally used to refer to our particular way of practice.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby Pedestrian on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:19 pm

Gassho, both Meido and Nonin. Your exchange ennobles this forum.

And now for a cheap joke (emphasis mine):

Meido wrote:Lest anyone misinterpret our posts as evidence of some Rinzai vs. Soto disconnect, I'd want to stress that viewing kensho as an experience or moment of insight to be sought after or craved is, of course, not something that any school of Zen would do, or take as the thrust of practice (if by "thrust" one means something upon which one stops, or takes as authentication of final fruition). There is no school of Zen which would hold up any experience or moment as something to which we should cling, since practice continues onward endlessly in the present.


Any student who's ever brought a big, fat, juicy kensho moment into dokusan for a high five/A+/"Way to go!" from teacher, and instead received a big, fat, juicy shrug, knows that clinging all too well!

Not that, you know, I've ever done that.... :blush:
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Re: The Field of Spiritual Experience

Postby sunyavadi on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:52 am

Nonin wrote:
Dogen wrote:Don't think that you'll necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment.


That is a very deep idea. One of the things that attracted me to Buddhism in the first place was the notion of 'learning by experience' instead of simply believing what you're told to believe (like you do in Biblical faiths). I had always understood enlightenment to be something that could be validated in experience.

This statement really challenges that, doesn't it? If you're not 'aware of your own enlightenment', then where is the feedback loop that tells you if you're on the right track? If you're not actually aware of your own enlightenment, then who is? It seems a bit of a quandary.

Mind you, part of me knows what that means, and is OK with it, somehow. But it is one of those things that when you try and spell it out, just seems very paradoxical.
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