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Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Zen?

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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:14 am

S.,

Seeker242 wrote: if true mind can be clouded, then it can also be unclouded. To think it's only a one way street from aware to ignorant, that's antithetical to the entirety of the BuddhaDharma, since that unclouding is the only purpose of the Buddhadharma to begin with!

Of course it can be unclouded, and we have agreement there.

Where I'd say you have confusion is in saying that the clouded mind is a "mind". I'd say no. But it's instead an impression of moving thoughts, and can even be as comprehensive as "all of Samasara". It is only clouds, not a mind. It's not that there are two minds. Well, I'd say there's ONE, if that many. And what we call a mind, or "the" mind before we begin practicing (and definitely at any time before we awaken) is not mind, and is not "a" mind. "It" is illusions. Or, "it" is the skandhas.

--Joe
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:34 am

at the end of the day, there is no such thing as an altered state of consciousness. yes, yes, I know..... but, no.
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby Seeker242 on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:47 am

desert_woodworker wrote:S.,

Seeker242 wrote: if true mind can be clouded, then it can also be unclouded. To think it's only a one way street from aware to ignorant, that's antithetical to the entirety of the BuddhaDharma, since that unclouding is the only purpose of the Buddhadharma to begin with!

Of course it can be unclouded, and we have agreement there.


desert_woodworker wrote:
Seeker242 wrote:Yes, it can be altered from "ignorant" to "enlightened". :)

Ha. I appreciate the humor. But taking it for a moment, for all reading, as if you meant it seriously, I'll say the following:

That's the most common misconception we run into everywhere. Thanks for bringing it up here, so it can be crushed.

The truth is the reverse of what you write.



That doesn't sound like agreement to me! As "ignorant" to "enlightened" = unclouded.
Kill a cat, with a dried shit stick, under a cypress tree in the courtyard, while eating three pounds of flax! Only a cow goes Moooo!
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:50 am

S.,

Seeker242 wrote:That doesn't sound like agreement to me! As "ignorant" to "enlightened" = unclouded.

Thanks! The trick is not to try to take two points of view at once. --Joe
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:56 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:at the end of the day, there is no such thing as an altered state of consciousness. yes, yes, I know..... but, no.

Note that Guo Gu in his post asserts that the state of awakening is the absence of altered states.

However, you may both be "right", you and he. ;)

Either there ARE altered states, and they are just not present, none of them, in awakening;
Or, there are NO altered states, so of course there are none in awakening.

But, Linda, no one knows what "the end of the day" is. It is a cliché. And, here, it may be weasel-words. It's not a Buddhist technical term. ;)

Think about the easy case of a dream-sleep state. Is that an "alteration" of "ordinary waking consciousness"? Or is ordinary waking consciousness an alteration of a dream-sleep state? It may come to seem as if all states of consciousness are alterations of SOMETHING however, even if not of consciousness itself. Whatever "consciousness itself" is. Thanks to young philosopher David Chalmers, that question is called "The Hard Problem" (of consciousness), in western-philosophical discussions of the topic.

Sorry, time now to check the eyelids for cracks. :tongueincheek: night-night,

--Joe
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby Linda Anderson on Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:44 am

dear Joe... I am not using the term.... "at the end of the day" as a cliche.... put that in your pipe and smoke it.
linda
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby Larry on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:47 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:no one knows what "the end of the day" is


Is that why I have nightmares when someone steals the sun? :lol2:
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:49 pm

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:dear Joe... I am not using the term.... "at the end of the day" as a cliche.... put that in your pipe and smoke it.
linda

Nonetheless, it is a cliche. No smoke and no fire, here!

--Joe
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:51 pm

hi, Larry,

Larry wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:no one knows what "the end of the day" is

Is that why I have nightmares when someone steals the sun? :lol2:

Hmm, maybe you saw some of that recent eclipse of the sun, then? :)

Wishing you a happy Equinox, today (20:02 UTC?).

Rest easy,

--Joe
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby Larry on Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:04 pm

Only saw the recent eclipse on TV. But did travel a few hundred miles to take my daughter to the last total eclipse in the UK in 1999. Saw some wonderful thick cloud & the eclipse itself on a pocket TV with a one inch screen :lol2:
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby organizational on Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:46 pm

The things happening in life are never be like what we expect.
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby Larry on Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:54 pm

Wonderful :)
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Re: Can one enter altered states of consciousness through Ze

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:26 pm

And, again, SF writer Robert Heinlein wrote, "Climate is what you expect; Weather is what you get." --Joe
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