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The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

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The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby jundo on Sun May 14, 2017 3:28 am

Hi,

Most Zen folks do not realize that the actual Master Linji Yixuan (Master Rinzai, 臨濟義玄, died 866) probably practiced a kind of non-seeking meditation seemingly closer in attitude to "Just Sitting" non-seeking, non-gaining "Shikantaza" than the Koan Introspection Zazen which is now associated with the "Rinzai School" of Zen. Of course, to say that Linji practiced "Shikantaza" would be ridiculous! Shikantaza as we know did not exist at the time. However, Koan Introspection Zazen also did not exist at the time. Koan Introspection Zazen was developed by a monk in the Rinzai Lineage named Dahui (Dahui Zonggao 大慧宗杲) in the 12th Century, and further developed by others later including in Japan by Master Hakuin in the 18th Century, many many centuries after Rinzai lived.

Please heed that I do not mean that Koan Introspection is bad, or less than Shikantaza/Silent Illumination, in any way whatsoever for those called to that Path. Quite the contrary! I simply make the point that it was a later historical development, and that Master Rinzai himself, in his writings, seemed to express many non-gaining, "Shikantaza-ish" views about Practice and Zazen. We do not know exactly what form of meditation Master Rinzai practiced, and the evidence is thin that it was Silent Illumination. But it is unlikely to have been Koan Introspection as we now know it, which did not exist at the time ... and most of the Koan stories themselves (many about Rinzai himself!) were not created as Koan stories until the Song Dynasty. There is no doubt that Silent Illumination and the like is an older tradition in the Zen/Chan world than Kanna (Koan Introspection) Zazen, but that does not mean that Rinzai sat "Silent Illumination". Again, no statement is being made by me that (1) one is better than the other, for a later innovation can even be an improvement sometimes, or (2) that Silent Illumination was not also an innovation. (It does not take much deep familiarity with Buddhist, and even Chan history, to know that many forms of meditation were practiced in China before and after the advent of both flavors of Zazen. http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-2036-9780824810887.aspx).

I simply make the point that so many of the Linji quotes below seem like dandy "don't seek, don't stop the thoughts, don't doubt, Just Sitting" instructions!

Anyway, here are the "Shikantaza-ish" quotes from the Record of Linji, and please judge for yourself:

----



“In my view there is no Buddha, no sentient beings, no past, no present. Anything attained was already attained—no time is needed. There is nothing to practice, nothing to realize, nothing to gain, nothing to lose. Throughout all time there is no other dharma than this. ‘If one claims there’s a dharma
surpassing this, I say that it’s like a dream, like a phantasm.’ This is all I have to teach.

“Outside mind there’s no dharma, nor is there anything to be gained within it. What are you seeking? Everywhere you say, ‘There’s something to practice, something to obtain.’ Make no mistake! Even if there were something to be gained by practice, it would be nothing but birth-and-death karma."

“Bring to rest the thoughts of the ceaselessly seeking mind, and you will not differ from the patriarch-buddha. Do you want to know the patriarch-buddha? He is none other than you who stand before me listening to my discourse. But because you students lack faith in yourselves, you run around seeking something outside. Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch.

“If you wish to diff er in no way from the patriarch-buddha, just don’t seek outside. The pure light in a single thought of yours—this is the dharmakāya buddha within your own house. The nondiscriminating light in a single thought of yours—this is the saṃbhogakāya buddha within your own house. The nondiff erentiating light in a single thought of yours—this is the nirmāṇakāya buddha within your own house. Th is threefold body is you, listening to my discourse right now before my very eyes. It is precisely because you don’t run around seeking outside that you have such meritorious activities.

“A true follower of the Way is never like this; conforming with circumstances as they are he exhausts his past karma; accepting things as they are he puts on his clothes; when he wants to walk he walks, when he wants to sit he sits; he never has a single thought of seeking buddhahood.

“Virtuous monks, time is precious. And yet, hurrying hither and thither, you try to learn meditation, to study the Way, to accept names, to accept phrases, to seek buddha, to seek a patriarch, to seek a good teacher, to think and speculate.
“Make no mistake, followers of the Way! Aft er all, you have a father and a mother—what more do you seek? Turn your own light inward upon yourselves!
A man of old said, Yajñadatta [thought he had] lost his head,
But when his seeking mind came to rest, he was at ease.
“Virtuous monks, just be ordinary. Don’t put on airs.

“One thought of doubt, and instantly the demon [māra] enters your mind. Even a bodhisattva, when in doubt, is taken advantage of by the demon of birth-and-death. Just desist from thinking, and never seek outside. If something should come, illumine it. Have faith in your activity revealed now—there isn’t a thing to do. [Jundo Note: An interesting quote for a man often associated with recommending 'Great Balls of Doubt'}

“There are a bunch of blind shavepates who, having stuff ed themselves with food, sit down to meditate and practice contemplation. Arresting the flow of thought they don’t let it rise; they hate noise and seek stillness. This is the method of the heretics. A patriarch said, ‘If you stop the mind to look
at stillness, arouse the mind to illumine outside, control the mind to clarify inside, concentrate the mind to enter samādhi—all such [practices] as these are artificial striving.’ [Jundo Note: This and several other quotes on not trying to still the flow of thoughts]

“Blind fools! Wastefully squandering the alms given them by believers everywhere and saying, ‘I am a renouncer of home,’ all the while holding such views as these! I say to you there is no buddha, no dharma, nothing to practice, nothing to enlighten to. Just what are you seeking in the highways and byways? Blind men! You’re putting a head on top of the one you already have. What do you yourselves lack? Followers of the Way, your own present activities do not diff er from those of the patriarch-buddhas. You just don’t believe this and keep on seeking outside. Make no mistake! Outside there is no dharma; inside, there is nothing to be obtained. Better than grasp at the words from my mouth, take it easy and do nothing.

The master said, “It is because you cannot stop your mind which runs on seeking everywhere that a patriarch said, ‘Bah, superior men! Searching for your heads with your heads!’ When at these words you turn your own light in upon yourselves and never seek elsewhere, then you’ll know that your body and mind are not different from those of the patriarch-buddhas and on the instant have nothing to do—this is called ‘obtaining the dharma.’

There are many more ...
http://info.stiltij.nl/publiek/meditati ... sasaki.pdf

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun May 14, 2017 3:53 am

I "agree with Linji".

I think that, as an awakened person as he was, there were many natural ways in which to rest the fallen-away body-mind.

To take on a way, and call that "meditation" is the way of an unawakened person (but a necessary discipline to develop, to enable the more natural ways which are to follow).

Methods are expedient means, and I accept their necessity. I also accept the freedom that Linji had as an awakened person, and the freedom we all have, when, as awakened people ourselves, we are also free.

I don't reject methods and practice. But we probably all come to find out when an artifice is unnecessary weight -- and, as artificial -- is a distraction or screen in the way of the natural. And, moreover, there are times when an artifice cannot even be picked up: it is impossible. It is (then) impossible to fiddle with, or to want to fiddle with, artifices, and apply names to them like "meditation", or "practice". So says Lin-Chi, too. At those times, only the natural persists, and this is simply the spontaneously natural and unfettered functioning of our original and actual nature.

--Joe
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby bokki on Sun May 14, 2017 9:36 pm

rev j
again and again
how many more times
ill answer this crap when i have a few minutes to spare
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun May 14, 2017 9:38 pm

No worries, no hurry.

--Joe
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby organizational on Sun May 14, 2017 11:36 pm

i want to drink and go to a swimmingpool

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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby jundo on Mon May 15, 2017 3:47 am

desert_woodworker wrote:I "agree with Linji".

I think that, as an awakened person as he was, there were many natural ways in which to rest the fallen-away body-mind.

To take on a way, and call that "meditation" is the way of an unawakened person (but a necessary discipline to develop, to enable the more natural ways which are to follow).

Methods are expedient means, and I accept their necessity. I also accept the freedom that Linji had as an awakened person, and the freedom we all have, when, as awakened people ourselves, we are also free.

I don't reject methods and practice. But we probably all come to find out when an artifice is unnecessary weight -- and, as artificial -- is a distraction or screen in the way of the natural. And, moreover, there are times when an artifice cannot even be picked up: it is impossible. It is (then) impossible to fiddle with, or to want to fiddle with, artifices, and apply names to them like "meditation", or "practice". So says Lin-Chi, too. At those times, only the natural persists, and this is simply the spontaneously natural and unfettered functioning of our original and actual nature.

--Joe


Hi Joe,

Yes, he was an "awakened person" perhaps, but many of the quotes are directed as advice to ordinary priests and lay people on "how to" Zen Practice.

It is also unclear if he even "sat" Zazen or felt it necessary! Some of the old folks back in the day may have felt that even sitting at all was not necessary. The Record of Rinzai, at least, is a bit ambiguous on the topic (while it is clear that he did seated Zazen at some point in his own Training, it is ambiguous as to whether he finally decided that it is not necessary). However, I feel that there are enough passages in the Record to support that he did so ... For example:

“But if you try to get understanding by hurrying down this byway and that, you’ll still be in the round of samsara after three asakhyeya kalpas. Better take your ease sitting cross-legged on a meditation platform in the monastery.


There is also a lot of evidence that it was just expected that meditation be conducted in any major monastery, and it would have been quite the social scandal if Rinzai or any Abbot of a national monastery had not been performing the standard rituals and practices, including meditation.

In any case, these quotes show the great unity of our Way(s), and there is truly neither "Rinzai" nor "Soto." Master Rinzai did not sit "Koan Introspection Zazen", because it did not exist at the time. Master Rinzai did not sit "Shikantaza" because it did not exist at the time, and he may not have sat "Silent Illumination" because there is little evidence to go on and that way also may not have been so at the time. However, in any case, there is much here that resonates with Shikantaza practice just as it may resonate with Koan Introspection.

Soto People, including me, dance with Koans just as Rinzai folks dance with Koans (in fact, the only people who may not have actually "danced with Koans" were the people who are in the Koans such as Master Rinzai, because Koan culture did not exist as such in the age of Master Rinzai, and most of the Koans were creations of the Song. The "Golden Age of Zen" is largely a literary creation of authors during the Song Dynasty. The creation and gradual embellishment of so many of the major Koans as literature is now well demonstrated. They are not historical records, and it is unlikely that they are verbatim transcripts of taped meetings. :PP: ). In any case, now and for a thousand years, we cherish Koans. Dogen cherished Koans as much as Dahui or Hakuin, even if the approachless approach to the Koans was a little different for each.

I simply make the point that so many of the Linji quotes above seem like dandy "don't seek, don't stop the thoughts, don't doubt, Just Sitting" instructions! I could cut and paste them and use them as descriptions of Shikantaza to present to my own students.

Gassho, Jundo
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 15, 2017 1:30 pm

Good morning, Jundo, et al.,

Another aphoristic line that comes to mind is from Ma-Tsu:

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Ch'an of Tathagata."

--Joe

p.s. (Jundo, I hope
you're feeling better,
or are all healed!).
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 15, 2017 2:06 pm

Jundo,

Thank you for your rich reply.

To comment in turn on just a few points:

jundo wrote:Yes, he was an "awakened person" perhaps, but many of the quotes are directed as advice to ordinary priests and lay people on "how to" Zen Practice.

Indeed, yes. And as a teacher, his giving advice like that was of course a large part of his function within the institution (as well as his natural function as someone who is awake). And as a novice monk, and beyond, I assume he participated in deep training in the traditional ways, himself (but I note that you say this is unclear, or ambiguous). I also accept (with gratitude) the traditional ways (of practice, and teaching), and myself have written above,

    " 'meditation' is the way of an unawakened person (but a necessary discipline to develop, to enable the more natural ways which are to follow)".
Granted, awakening is often (or sometimes... ) said not to occur within a period of seated meditation, but always (usually... ) due to some other influence which shatters one's samadhi, or tears it down the middle before one's open eyes, revealing utter clarity everywhere. This can happen even when one is up and around; walking, or working. Let's see, on this point, there's the nice awakening-gatha of Shiang-Yan, who was cutting weeds or sweeping when a stone or piece of tile was sent flying to hit against a bamboo with a sound:

    "A single 'tock' -- all prior knowledge forgotten
    This is not the result of practice --
    Daily activities proclaim the Ancient Way.
    No more falling into passive stillness.
    Wherever I go I leave no trace;
    In all situations my actions are free.
    Everywhere masters of the Way
    Speak of this as the highest function."

jundo wrote:There is also a lot of evidence that it was just expected that meditation be conducted in any major monastery, and it would have been quite the social scandal if Rinzai or any Abbot of a national monastery had not been performing the standard rituals and practices, including meditation.

Of that I have no doubt, either. ;)

jundo wrote:In any case, these quotes show the great unity of our Way(s), and there is truly neither "Rinzai" nor "Soto."

I hope that's right. Anyway, I feel it is, as I've experienced a nice harmony of the traditions in my two main teachers' "style", both of whom were heir to both Rinzai and Soto lines: Ch'an Master Ven. Sheng Yen; and Patrick Hawk, Roshi (both now deceased).

jundo wrote:Dogen cherished Koans as much as Dahui or Hakuin, even if the approachless approach to the Koans was a little different for each.

My friend, the late John Daido Loori Roshi, brought out his nice translation of Dogen's 300 koans collected in China, quite a blockbuster of translation and commentary in 2005, THE TRUE DHARMA EYE. Yes, I think it surprised a lot of people (in the West) that Dogen had had (such!) a connection with koans.

Regards,

and wishes for your health,

--Joe
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby bokki on Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:41 pm

Koan Introspection Zazen was developed by a monk in the Rinzai Lineage named Dahui (Dahui Zonggao 大慧宗杲) in the 12th Century, and further developed by others later including in Japan by Master Hakuin in the 18th Century, many many centuries after Rinzai lived.

lol i tought to refrain, about all of it, but ...a monk name Dahui? Realy?..
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby bokki on Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:58 am

sometimes i look with envy at our brothers across the fence
at their strange plants lush forests and wild pathways
suffice it 2 say im soto shu.d below is full of discrimination and unintentional mistakes so feel free to correct or comment. so imho,
SHIKANTAZA and RINZAI
Hi,

Most Zen folks do not realize that the actual Master Linji Yixuan (Master Rinzai, 臨濟義玄, died 866) probably practiced a kind of non-seeking meditation seemingly closer in attitude to "Just Sitting" non-seeking, non-gaining "Shikantaza" than the Koan Introspection Zazen which is now associated with the "Rinzai School" of Zen. Of course, to say that Linji practiced "Shikantaza" would be ridiculous! Shikantaza as we know did not exist at the time. However, Koan Introspection Zazen also did not exist at the time. Koan Introspection Zazen was developed by a monk in the Rinzai Lineage named Dahui (Dahui Zonggao 大慧宗杲) in the 12th Century, and further developed by others later including in Japan by Master Hakuin in the 18th Century, many many centuries after Rinzai lived.

... and of course someone is calling Dahui a monk in the Rinzai Lineage. Makes one wonder.
Shikantaza is not the invention of Ruijing, or some of his obscure masters, nor of Japanese Zen, or Patriarch Dogen. It was practiced as an archetypal state of mind, in countless variations, since before the dawn of time, since our ancestors gathered around the fire at night. So is the genjo koan, the life question, Bodhicitta, the will to awaken, the one that made Buddha sit Shikantaza for so long under the tree.
Thus the seeking and the non seeking come together. But not in a way that would say Dogen did not leave his old teacher on his death bed, crossed the sea, departed from his teacher on the journey, finally found a teacher, sought hard, and...
came back with my eyes are horizontal and nose vertical and practice is enlight...
and wrote 3000 pages of hard core enlightenment stories, admonishing to train hard, seek until the seeking ceases, because it will not cease so easily. But still his students ...
On the other hand, how many times did the rinzai help soto? i can recall 3 now. Dahui and Hongzi, Fushan and Dayang, or Ryuki Ingen of Obaku and Guon. (if im mistaken, plz somene comment)
Why is this happening? imho, reasons are many >
It is true that the Soto is like a farmer. He timidly crops his meager piece of land, waiting for some crop, hoping for some rain, hoping that no flood will wash his existence away. Once in ten eons the Buddha on the Throne Of Enlightenment Awakens, fruits and happiness abound, and he makes a record of it, and then waits another ten eons until Maitreya comes.
While the warrior knows that seeking is the essence of non seeking and that only those who have sought can cease to seek so he seeks finds or fails but once found he is free to roam at will.
Back to Shikantaza. It is a basic practice within Zen Buddhism. Buddha, Boddhidharma, Hui Neng, ..., Rinzai (untill he was told to ask the teacher a question, a koan, beaten three times, and the rest is myth, as some of my brothers would say) all practiced Shikantaza... they all practiced their own variety of SKT. An example is advaita or vedanta, idk, with Ramana, Nisargadata, UG. Or the silent prayer of Christian mystics. Maha Mudra Teachings. imo, it is the Buddhas meditation under the tree. But were it not for Bodhicitta, the will for enlightenment, and Shakyas own life question, genjo koan, if he did not seek, well then...
One of the things i want to say is a far fetched comparison to plants. If you teach a seedling not to seek its like nipping him at the start, is it not natural to encourage it seek to grow and stop seeking when it starts to fruit, as there is nothing further to seek.
It is also true imo that some people hear Rinzai the way they want to, but idk.,i think he is adressing seasoned monks.
“In my view there is no Buddha, no sentient beings, no past, no present. Anything attained was already attained—no time is needed. There is nothing to practice, nothing to realize, nothing to gain, nothing to lose. Throughout all time there is no other dharma than this. ‘If one claims there’s a dharma
surpassing this, I say that it’s like a dream, like a phantasm.’ This is all I have to teach.
“Outside mind there’s no dharma, nor is there anything to be gained within it. What are you seeking? Everywhere you say, ‘There’s something to practice, something to obtain.’ Make no mistake! Even if there were something to be gained by practice, it would be nothing but birth-and-death karma."
Rinzai

imho, this quite different from "practice is elightenment, enlightenment is practice", since the nonseeking attitude is truthfuly extended to practice as well as realisation.
and some other ideas..later..all imho
/
Well this is one of my fixations, i admit, so i could go on,on. ill prob will a bit. any coments wellcome, slanders too, if civil.lol
b
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby jundo on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:15 am

bokki wrote:
Koan Introspection Zazen was developed by a monk in the Rinzai Lineage named Dahui (Dahui Zonggao 大慧宗杲) in the 12th Century, and further developed by others later including in Japan by Master Hakuin in the 18th Century, many many centuries after Rinzai lived.

lol i tought to refrain, about all of it, but ...a monk name Dahui? Realy?..


Yes. A monk named Dahui, sometimes written Tahui (1089–1163). It must be your first time to hear the name. Page 112-116:

[It] is certain that well before Dahui’s time, students of Chan were instructed by their masters to contemplate or mull over particular gongan stories or gongan-like phrases over a long period and that this practice
was thought often to lead to an enlightenment experience. The development of this use of gongan clearly foreshadows Dahui’s kanhua Chan, and without it, Dahui’s innovations would hardly have been possible. The earlier form of gongan contemplation differs from kanhua Chan in a number of important ways, however. The earlier practice was never advocated as the exclusive or even main practice leading toward enlightenment, and there was no notion of a ball of doubt that builds up before finally shattering. (In fact, doubt was seen as an impediment.) Most important, there is no record from the Song of any earlier Chan master’s having told his audience to focus on a single word or phrase of a gongan story, as Dahui did when he insisted on the intense reflection on the huatou, or punch line, in kanhua practice ...

.. Therefore, kanhua Chan can be characterized as a whole new meditation technique. Furthermore, Dahui insisted that kanhua practice was in actuality the only way to enlightenment for Chan practitioners of his
day, to the virtual exclusion of other Buddhist meditation practices. In this insistence, he was unusual among the Song Chan masters, who generally tended to take a rather inclusive view of Buddhist practice. It is therefore fair to say that Dahui not only developed a new contemplative technique, he also invented a whole new kind of Chan in the process.
https://terebess.hu/zen/How-Zen-Became-Zen.pdf


As a side note, I happen to be re-reading Poceski's "The Records of Mazu of the Making of Classical Chan Literature." He makes the simple but often overlooked point that the Tang dynasty ancestors such as Mazu supposedly in the Koans are unlikely to have known what a Koan was, nor to have engaged in such interchanges in such language (let alone in a form that could be recorded, not to mention the fact that there is now a long paper trail showing clearly the gradual creation and embellishment of these stories centuries after they lived) ...

(From p 41-54)
As the tradition evolved during the Tang-Song transition—partially in response to
changes in the religious, social, and political environments—its ideals, tenets,
and modes of self-representation also underwent notable transformations.
Among the primary means of effecting and legitimizing such changes was
the retroactive attribution of the new attitudes, ideas, and values, along with
the symbolic imagery that surrounded them, to notable Chan figures such
as Mazu.

In effect, successive generations of Chan teachers, adherents, and writers
attributed various aspects of their pious beliefs, ideological agendas, or
religious outlooks back to Mazu, his prominent disciples, and other Chan
teachers from the late Tang era. As active participants in intricate historical
processes, which involved the articulation and promotion of specific visions
of Chan orthodoxy, they envisaged Mazu iconic images and transformed his
religious persona in light of ever-changing doctrinal perspectives, ideological
agendas, and institutional circumstances.

...

The tendency to look backward in time and celebrate the glories of certain
bygone eras—most notably the Tang—which are romanticized, mythologized,
or (mis)understood in light of current concerns and circumstances, is among
the salient characteristics of Chan history. To some degree, these kinds of tendencies
can also be traced back to the Tang period, but they became especially
prominent later on, starting with the tenth century. Within such contexts, the
putative deeds and words of prominent Chan figures such as Mazu were continuously
subjected to various revisions and reinterpretations. In the course of
time, new materials were also produced and added to the expanding literary
corpus, although there was also an occasional loss of certain sources, especially
if they did not fit into evolving notions of Chan orthodoxy. To a large degree,
these narratives functioned as essential elements of a cumulative tradition that,
according to a popular myth of origins that serves as a bedrock of Chan orthodoxy,
went back to the Buddha’s original experience of supreme awakening in
ancient India. In effect, Chan was a tradition that simultaneously encompassed
the past and the present, often blurring the boundaries between the two.

...

Arguably the best-known elements of traditional Chan literature and popular
lore are the many brief vignettes or stories that depict the seemingly eccentric
acts and puzzling statements of various Chan teachers. Stories of this sort
form a distinct cluster of religious imagery that is commonly associated with
a “classical” Chan tradition that, according to conventional explanations, is
traceable back to Mazu and his Hongzhou School. They exemplify a particular
type of iconoclastic ethos, which by the Song period came to be regarded
as a central element of Chan orthodoxy. In numerous stories of this type,
Mazu and other noted Chan teachers from the Tang era engage their students
in a broad array of ostensibly spontaneous interactions, supposedly meant
to directly point to the timeless and all-pervasive nature of reality, which is
revealed amid ordinary things and realized in the course of everyday life.

...

When taken at face value, this sort of [encounter dialogue] story seems to suggest that the prevalent
forms of Buddhist discourse that were major elements of medieval Chinese
Buddhism, including canonical exegesis and thoughtful analysis of doctrinal
tenets, were eschewed within Chan circles. The same can be said of conventional
contemplative practices, ethical observances, and monastic rituals.
Basically, we are dealing with the kind of material that is behind familiar depictions
of the Chan School as a unique movement within Chinese Buddhism that
rejected or subverted established religious norms and traditions. According to
this interpretative scheme, the Chan movement was led by an unusual brand
of spiritual virtuosi with a penchant for strange or iconoclastic behavior, which
now and again moved in the direction of unbridled antinomianism. Namely,
we are faced with the fantasy of a supposedly vibrant and functioning monastic
institution in which monks spend much of their time walking around and
engaging in all sorts of eccentric or inappropriate behaviors.
Ever since D. T. Suzuki first introduced his unduly romanticized and ahistorical
version of Zen during the early part of the twentieth century, packaged
in a manner that resonated with the intellectual horizons and cultural
sensibilities of his readers, popular perceptions of Chan/Zen in the West have
revolved around the dramatic imagery derived from this kind of materials.
Notwithstanding the recent availability of alternative interpretations, once one
steps out of the narrow circle of scholars specializing in Chan/Zen studies,
these stories still shape the popular image and understanding of the classical
Chan tradition.

...


(from page 146-156)
Stories composed in the encounter dialogue model obviously tell us something
about Chan Buddhism as it was understood and articulated at the time
when they were created. But when was that? Should we assume that they reveal
anything about the views and practices of Mazu and the other prominent Tang
monks who appear in them? Or perhaps it is more prudent to view them as
reflections of later remaking or reimagination of the religious personas and
the teachings of Chan masters such as Mazu, which might not have much
to do with Tang-era Chan? When traditional and modern writers use these
kinds of stories as historical records, are they perhaps mistakenly basing their
interpretations on apocryphal textual materials that bear no direct relevance
to the tradition they are supposed to describe? I have already indicated the
answers to these questions, but perhaps it will be helpful to examine in a bit
more detail the origins of the divergent images of Mazu by tracing the earliest
textual sources where they make their initial appearance.

...

In light of the still prevalent view about the central role of the encounter dialogue
model in the religious discourse and spiritual practice of the classical
Chan tradition, it is important to note that the lack of any evidence about the
Tang-era origins of any of the dialogues that appear in Mazu yulu is in no way
unique to this text. Despite the fact that later Chan texts include many stories
that contain iconoclastic dialogues in which Mazu and his disciples of the first
several generations—as well as many other monks from the same era—are
the main protagonists, not one of them appears in a text that can be traced
back to the Tang period. Indeed, I have not been able to find a single piece
of evidence to show that during the Tang period there was any awareness of
the existence of such a thing as the encounter dialogue model, let alone that
it was the Chan School’s main medium of religious instruction or practice, as
is often assumed.
As we examine the existing textual records from the Tang era, it is striking
that none of them conveys a sense of awareness or recognition of the
iconoclastic paradigm associated with the encounter dialogues.
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Poceski-Mazu.pdf


That in no way means that a Koan story, although likely fictional, is not without great value as a teaching. For purposes of Zen practice, the words of a fictional Mazu are just as useful as an historical Mazu.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Dahui was a Lineage Descendant of Linji, There is some question on that?
https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=DXN ... ui&f=false
Last edited by jundo on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby bokki on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:42 am

Koan Introspection Zazen was developed by a monk in the Rinzai Lineage named Dahui

...a monk name Dahui? Realy?..

Yes. A monk named Dahui, sometimes written Tahui (1089–1163). It must be your first time to hear the name.

well, i told you so, all, and its clear now.
Why dont you use the term Master or Patriarch, Reverend Jundo?
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby jundo on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:54 am

bokki wrote:Why dont you use the term Master or Patriarch, Reverend Jundo?


No need, just "Jundo" or "Rev. Jundo" is fine. :PP:

Gassho, Jundo

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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby bokki on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:08 am

lol, nice.
but, would you still call Master Ta Hui just a monk in the Rinzai Lineage?
thnx
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby jundo on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:24 am

bokki wrote:lol, nice.
but, would you still call Master Ta Hui just a monk in the Rinzai Lineage?
thnx


Monk in the Rinzai Lineage is most honorable name, is Buddha. So is Bokki.

Gassho, J

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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby bokki on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:39 am

lol there you go again! i hoped you would stick to
No need, just "Jundo" or "Rev. Jundo" is fine. :PP:

but u just up and away with names!
Rinzai Patriarch Ta Hui is just a Soto monk.lol
Still you call him a monk?
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby jundo on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:08 am

bokki wrote:lol there you go again! i hoped you would stick to
No need, just "Jundo" or "Rev. Jundo" is fine. :PP:

but u just up and away with names!
Rinzai Patriarch Ta Hui is just a Soto monk.lol
Still you call him a monk?


Dogen was just a Soto monk. He was also a Rinzai monk, and probably inherited a Rinzai Lineage too, although he appears to have dropped that. Pages 48 to 56 here ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?redir_ ... en&f=false

There is no evidence that the Rinzai Lineage from monk Dogen was passed on to later generations of his heirs, although it is possible that Gikai and Keizan may have facilitated at least once the passing on of the Rinzai Lineage that was derived from Nonin (not the Nonin sometimes around here) via the so-called "Daruma-shu". Most RInzai and Soto folks do not recognize the legitimacy of Nonin's "at a distance" Dharma Transmission from a Chinese Master, however.

The priest Noniri's go was Dainichi. He was the uncle of Kagekiyo, a leader of the Taira family. While young, he attended lecture sessions where he studied the sutras and sastras, By nature he was attracted to Zen and, polishing his talents, he meditated deeply, eventually attaining enlightenment. He founded Samboji in Settsu, where he spread Zen widely. Monks and laymen of the Kinki region flocked to him. He was attacked, however, because he had not studied under a master. Therefore, in 1189, he sent his disciples Renchu and Shoben, bearing a letter and gifts, to Sung China, where they offered them to the dhyiina master Cho-an [Te-] kuang of A-yii-wang shan, requesting that he acknowledge their master's understanding.
Te-kuang gladly attested to Noniri's awakening, presented a dharma-robe and name, and a picture of Bodhidharma with a laudatory verse inscribed. Renchu and Shoben had an artist paint a portrait of Te-kuang and asked the master to write a verse in praise. Te-kuang wrote: 'This monk, a true man without face, has upset the heavens and turned back the axis of the earth. Master Jen [Nōnin] stands forth in his eminent enlightenment and has set to flight heretics and demons.'
After his disciples returned to Japan, Noniri's fame spread far and wide. His chief disciple Kakuan received his sanction and preached Zen widely at a temple in Tonornine in Yamato. Koun Ejō of Eiheiji was Kakuan's disciple for a long while.... Shoko of Chinzei visited Noniri's assembly and studied the essentials of Tsung-ching lu with him.

...
After Dōgen's death, Eiheiji was administered by his successor Ejō. When Ejō died in 1280, a controversy over his succession, the so-called 'third-generation controversy' (sandai sorom), took place between the partisans of Tettsu Gikai (1219-1309), 69 and those of Gien (d. 1314). 70 Both were former members of the Daruma-shū, but while Gien had apparently rejected his former affiliation to receive the precepts of the Sōtō line from Ejō, Gikai had preserved the Daruma-shū lineage. Despite this fact, he had been chosen by to go to China and study the rule and architecture of the Ch'an monasteries. After his return to Japan, he stayed in various Zen institutions in the imperial capital (Kenninji, Tofukuji) and in Kamakura (Jufukuji, Kencho­ji) for the same purpose.

The details of the controversy are not well known, but Japanese scholars generally share Okubo Doshu's view of the contention 71 as reflecting the correct reaction of Dōgen's orthodox successors, Gien and Jakuen.72 Apparently, the principal ground for discord had to do with the administration of Eiheiji. In accordance with Ejō's will, Gikai had become the third abbot of the monastery and had introduced various changes in its architecture and administration. The discontent provoked by these measures turned into an open conflict, although the real cause of contention was the legitimate succession of Dōgen as patriarch of the sect. 73 Gikai's preservation of the Daruma-shū lineage within the Sōtō tradition was perceived as heterodox and in violation of the uncompromising spirit of Dōgen's teaching, and this led to his eviction from the Eiheiji community in 1293. Gikai and his followers took refuge in Daijoji, a former Tendai temple in Kaga, which was then turned into a Zen monastery. In 1298, Gikai passed the direction of Daijoji to his disciple Keizan Jokin, to whom he entrusted the Daruma-shū tradition. When Gikai died in 1309, Eiheiji was still administered by Gien. After Gien's death in 1314, his disciple Giun (1253-1333), restored to some extent the monastery, which had fallen into a state of disrepair. Thus, until the end of the Muromachi period, the two factions remained completely separated, and only Keizan's branch flourished.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Dog ... _Soto.html


Gassho, J
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby bokki on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:23 am

Thank You, Reverend, for this most enlightening talk.
Gasho, b
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:20 pm

.
A corollary of this thread, and companion, could be:

The Koan Collection of ... Master Dogen!

My late friend, John Daido Loori (dharma decendant of Maezumi Roshi, of Zen Center of Los Angeles) has a fine translation of, and commentary on, the 300 koans collected by Dogen, THE TRUE DHARMA EYE: ZEN MASTER DOGEN'S THREE HUNDRED KOANS (2009). Kaz Tanahashi also collaborated with John on the translation.

It's a blockbuster.

Amazon has some info on the book; say, here:

http://www.amazon.com/True-Dharma-Eye-Master-Hundred/dp/1590304659/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1496762021&sr=1-2&keywords=dogen%2C+loori%2C

best,

--Joe

john_and_kaz.jpg
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Re: The Shikantaza Teachings of ... Master Rinzai!

Postby jundo on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:30 am

desert_woodworker wrote:.
A corollary of this thread, and companion, could be:

The Koan Collection of ... Master Dogen!

My late friend, John Daido Loori (dharma decendant of Maezumi Roshi, of Zen Center of Los Angeles) has a fine translation of, and commentary on, the 300 koans collected by Dogen, THE TRUE DHARMA EYE: ZEN MASTER DOGEN'S THREE HUNDRED KOANS (2009). Kaz Tanahashi also collaborated with John on the translation.

It's a blockbuster.

Amazon has some info on the book; say, here:

http://www.amazon.com/True-Dharma-Eye-Master-Hundred/dp/1590304659/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1496762021&sr=1-2&keywords=dogen%2C+loori%2C

best,

--Joe

john_and_kaz.jpg


Oh, Dogen loved the Koans, and Shobogenzo and Eiheikoroku are wall-to-wall old classic Koan stories that Dogen danced and syncopated in his usual Dogenified way. He also did not care if Mazu really said what was in a Koan, or if it was only some unnamed later writers version of what Mazu supposedly said. He used the Koans, old Sutra quotes and the like as rockets to launch his wildness.

Dogen even advised folks to consider and reflect on Koans. He used them as parables and inspirations and teaching vehicles and spoken origami.

It is just that there is little evidence that he advised anyone to sit Zazen holding a Koan or a head word in the manner of Master Tahui. For example, in the several portions of the Shobogenzo in which he is rather specific in Zazen instructions .... cross the legs so, think-non-thinking, breath so ... he leaves out any such mention or instructions. For the most part (as usual, it depends on the day one caught Dogen), Dogen was also critical of Tahui, perhaps in an attempt to bring the former Daruma-shu monks into the fold.

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=9d9 ... ui&f=false

More detail here on Dogen's mixed feelings about Tahui here (157-158) ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=Y5r ... ui&f=false

Gassho, J

SatToday


PS - My Teacher, Nishijima, also translated the 300 (+1) Koans. Sadly, it is hard to find. I am thinking to help get it back into print.

https://www.amazon.com/Master-Dogens-Sh ... 0952300265

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