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Lineage of the Buddhas

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Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby bokki on Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:08 pm

"May all sentient beings be made to discard their doubts, to cast aside their evil attachments, and to give rise to the correct faith in the Mahayana, that the lineage of the Buddhas may not be broken off."
This is a quote from The Awakening of Faith.
Now,
why would you pester us with your doubts that
the lineage of Buddhas may be broken off?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA
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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby bokki on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:12 pm

a quote from Shurangama Sutra:
"The Tathagata has often said that all dharmas that arise are only manifestations of the mind...
And yet now, as you listen to my Dharma, it is because of sound that you are able to make distinctions. "
in this part of the universe, in this place and moment, ill decide
and will not take discriminations
as a way 2 make my distincions
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby jundo on Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:01 am

Hi,

Most descriptions of the Zen and other Buddhist Lineages are now well understood by historians to be fictional cut and paste jobs featuring characters who either could not have met within their lifetimes, had nothing to do with "Zen" or sometimes never lived at all.

http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520254855

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReview ... gh_zen.htm

The stories of prior Buddhas to Gautama Buddha (if not the legends of Gautama himself) are likely creations of the religious imagination.

http://www.phatphaponline.org/kinh/Audi ... Buddha.pdf

And ... so what? These people and stories stand for so many somebodies somewhere, though nameless, who generation by generation developed these wonderful Teachings and worked to keep traditions and pass them on, and symbolize these Teachings and Traditions themselves.

Heck, I do not know the names of my own biological great-grandparents, let alone their parents' parents ... yet I am here and here we are.

Gassho, J

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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby bokki on Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:18 pm

Thank you very much, Rev. Jundo!
:Namaste:
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10,000 frogs singing in the rain
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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:00 am

jundo wrote:Hi,

Most descriptions of the Zen and other Buddhist Lineages are now well understood by historians to be fictional cut and paste jobs featuring characters who either could not have met within their lifetimes, had nothing to do with "Zen" or sometimes never lived at all. [....]
And ... so what? These people and stories stand for so many somebodies somewhere, though nameless, who generation by generation developed these wonderful Teachings and worked to keep traditions and pass them on, and symbolize these Teachings and Traditions themselves.
Yes, "and so what?" exactly. Historians have their own story, which is just alternative fictions.
For example, the Zen lineage is not "just fiction" as it connects teachings in a very personal manner. Many scholars and historians treat the lineage as if it is just "made up" in order to establish a legitimacy in China and the Chinese culture with its emphasis on ancestors. That is the least of it. It is a lineage of engaged traditions of teachings connected in the garland of the Buddha Dharma that represents the actual heritage, even if that heritage is as much historically symbolic as it is historically literal. In other words, the Chan lineage before Bodhidharma is not merely semiotic, but actually symbolic, which means it is not just signage, because it is living symbolism which communicates from the deepest recesses of mind.
So, as stated in the Continued Biographies of Eminent Monks, Bodhidharma's teaching is referred to in a historical context as the "One Vehicle lineage of Southern India" 南天竺一乘宗, and this later became the "Chan/Zen lineages" after Zongmi established and popularized the position that all the various lineages flowing from Bodhidharma are equally Chan/Zen. So when the teaching of Nargarjuna and Vasubandhu are strung together in the Zen/Chan lineage, it means that Bodhidharma's One Vehicle lineage of Southern India that he brought from India equally includes the teachings of emptiness as represented by the avatar of Nagarjuna and the 8 consciousnesses as symbolized by the avatar of Vasubandhu, as well as all the masters in between, each of whose transmission story embodies the suchness teachings of the One Vehicle lineage. It is like stringing together the musical influences of Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington. John Coltrane, and Miles Davis in a lineage of Jazz. The common denominator of "What is this One Vehicle lineage of Southern India?" and "What is this Chan?" is established by stringing the garland of the teachings together trough the Indian masters of the lineage.
jundo wrote:The stories of prior Buddhas to Gautama Buddha (if not the legends of Gautama himself) are likely creations of the religious imagination.

There is no religion outside of imagination. There is even no science outside of imagination.
We constitute the embodiment of religion by our "imagination of the ultimate environment" as James Fowlerdescribed it in "The Stages of Faith"
Here I want us to reflect about faith as a kind of imagination. Faith forms a way of seeing our everyday life in relation to holistic images of what we may call the ultimate environment.


_/|\_
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Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby Michaeljc on Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:38 am

Ah - but what of the lineage outside of the record?
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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby lobster on Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:42 am

Michaeljc wrote:Ah - but what of the lineage outside of the record?


Tee hee!
Is it of any use to those dozing in the line dance? :coffee:

There is of course a formal chain of command, with a uniform integrity, to be broken into the unrecorded ... :dance:

In a sense if you can find the Buds, Bodhis and Un-Enlightened in all their myriad forms, empty ways and independent insights ... bravo. :rbow:

The undead head of my 'lineage' is the Maitreya. Unborn. Oh yeah! :tee:
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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby jundo on Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:37 pm

Hi Greg,

About this ...

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:There is no religion outside of imagination. There is even no science outside of imagination.

We constitute the embodiment of religion by our "imagination of the ultimate environment" as James Fowlerdescribed it in "The Stages of Faith"
Here I want us to reflect about faith as a kind of imagination. Faith forms a way of seeing our everyday life in relation to holistic images of what we may call the ultimate environment.



Yes, the religious imagination presents ideals, paradigms for the hopes of the human heart. Religious notions may act as a symbol, a dreamed goal or human depiction of "perfection" ... call it Buddha or God or Heaven or Nirvana. (I do not mean that "Nirvana" or "God" or "Buddha" many not actually be true as true can be, but only that the images we paint and fantasies we hold from the outside about these things tend to be the difference between any actual "God" and the Sistine Chapel man with the white beard, between Buddha and gold statues of long eared Buddha.) Nonetheless, even if just romantic fictions or symbols, they can be very useful to many people as inspirations, me too.

But when you say that "science is imagination", you need to be cautious because then one is no different from someone who asserts that "Global Warming" is just imagination, that the "theory" that "the earth was created in 6 days and the dinosaurs lived with Adam and Eve" is on equal footing with the Theory of General Relativity. You are on dangerous ground, and I would assert that this disrespect for history and fact (calling everything one find's disagreeable to be "fake news") is part of what led to the present occupancy of the White House.

If a fantastic fiction or superstition helps someone, I am all for it. The Buddha called this "Expedient Means", basically a means to help someone who needs that. It is like the father who, in the Lotus Sutra, promised his kids imagined toys to lure them out of a burning building. If it gives someone strength, comfort and a bit of understanding to think and feel in such terms, I honor that.

The only issue for me is when people cling to these stories as truth, and are willing to excommunicate ... or worse ... anyone who does not hold to such "truths", be it very literal visions of rebirth or heaven and hell, the magic powers of a superhuman Buddha, faith healing (which actually does have some psychological powers, but that is a story for another day) over hospitals for child with a curable disease, a Virgin Birth, that the earth was created in 6 days, and the like. If folks need those stories, and it helps people to have faith in them as literally true, I support their doing so. Ok also to take much of this symbolically, holding that "6 days" is actually a timeless description of "6 Billions of years". In fact, it could even be that the earth was created in 6 days (of the ordinary calendar), and only my ignorance prevents me from seeing it as so.

But there is also nothing wrong with insisting that science has shown us some solid evidence for how the universe, this planet and our brains work and are put together, and historians a bit about the past, so our myths and stories need not (and perhaps, best not) contradict such facts. In fact, ignorance of all kinds is dangerous, and all of us need to recognize the potential for ignorance within ourselves.

By some recent surveys, such as this from Gallop ...

More than four in 10 Americans continue to believe that God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago, a view that has changed little over the past three decades. Half of Americans believe humans evolved, with the majority of these saying God guided the evolutionary process.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx


I believe that there is something a little dangerous in that, as much as their is danger in a cold and uncaring beiief in dog-eat-dog Social Darwinism, materialistic "scientific" Marxism and many other extreme beliefs that are just as narrow.

But I also believe that Buddhists are often not much better than Christian Creationists and that like, and that many of our oldest and most cherished Buddhist beliefs, Zen legends and assertions are superstitions, really "fake news", without factual basis or sustaining evidence, Nonetheless, people cling to many of these ideas as matters of faith. Some of us, however, feel that we can do without many such superstitions and still do just fine.

Gassho, Jundo
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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby jundo on Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:34 pm

Michaeljc wrote:Ah - but what of the lineage outside of the record?


And what of the lineage with no inside or out?

But that being said, the traditional stories of Lineage contain many many fallacies and much "fake news."

Folks do not realize sometimes that these two facts are "not two." The "fallacies" are also with no inside or out, and saying that many of the traditional stories are just made up (often for reasons of religious politics, such as the creation of a character like "Hui-Neng") does not deny the former. Even if "Hui-neng" is the product of somebody's (actually, many "somebodies'") imaginings, the Truths conveyed purportedly in the voice of Hui-neng are as True as True can be,

Gassho, J

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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby bokki on Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:35 pm

is there any chance that u might respond 2 us with an enlightened word? mind?
just give it another kick
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby Jok_Hae on Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:12 pm

bokki wrote:"May all sentient beings be made to discard their doubts, to cast aside their evil attachments, and to give rise to the correct faith in the Mahayana, that the lineage of the Buddhas may not be broken off."
This is a quote from The Awakening of Faith.
Now,
why would you pester us with your doubts that
the lineage of Buddhas may be broken off?


It's interesting to think that at every single moment, of every single day, someone, somewhere is doing some practice.

The lineage of the Buddha's is not broken off.

_/|\_

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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby jundo on Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:31 am

bokki wrote:is there any chance that u might respond 2 us with an enlightened word? mind?
just give it another kick


Jok Hae has already taken the words out of my mouth.

It's interesting to think that at every single moment, of every single day, someone, somewhere is doing some practice.

The lineage of the Buddha's is not broken off.


Lovely.

That being said, historical research and debunking creative legends taken as historical fact is also "enlightened word" and "Preserving the Unbroken Lineage" to those with an Eye to see. Do you believe that "mind" always needs look like some golden dream of "mind"? All just "six more pounds of flax."

Gassho, J

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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:26 am

jundo wrote:Hi Greg,

About this ...

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:There is no religion outside of imagination. There is even no science outside of imagination.

We constitute the embodiment of religion by our "imagination of the ultimate environment" as James Fowlerdescribed it in "The Stages of Faith"
Here I want us to reflect about faith as a kind of imagination. Faith forms a way of seeing our everyday life in relation to holistic images of what we may call the ultimate environment.



Yes, the religious imagination presents ideals, paradigms for the hopes of the human heart. Religious notions may act as a symbol, a dreamed goal or human depiction of "perfection" ... call it Buddha or God or Heaven or Nirvana. (I do not mean that "Nirvana" or "God" or "Buddha" many not actually be true as true can be, but only that the images we paint and fantasies we hold from the outside about these things tend to be the difference between any actual "God" and the Sistine Chapel man with the white beard, between Buddha and gold statues of long eared Buddha.) Nonetheless, even if just romantic fictions or symbols, they can be very useful to many people as inspirations, me too.

But when you say that "science is imagination", you need to be cautious because then one is no different from someone who asserts that "Global Warming" is just imagination, that the "theory" that "the earth was created in 6 days and the dinosaurs lived with Adam and Eve" is on equal footing with the Theory of General Relativity. You are on dangerous ground, and I would assert that this disrespect for history and fact (calling everything one find's disagreeable to be "fake news") is part of what led to the present occupancy of the White House.


There seems to be a disconnect because I’m not using the term “imagination” in the pejorative sense. I use “imagination” and “myth” in the psychological sense, which in Buddhist context means on the one hand the fundamental activity of the 4th skandha, and on the other hand the activity of the 6th consciousness as it relates to the 7th and 8th consciousnesses. When the 6th consciousness relates to the first five consciousnesses it is called perception or sense experience and when the 6th consciousness relates to the 7th and 8th consciousnesses it is called imagination, intuition, or “spiritual” experience. Imagination does not mean “make believe.” In the system of the three natures or trisvabhava, Imagination is what is called paratantra or “relatively dependent." Imagination is the activated process of the mind manifesting images, and the images take the forms of thoughts, ideas, notions, concepts, emotions, feelings, fears, fancies, etc. The make believe aspect of the imagination process I call "fancy" and it is the "fully contrived own-nature" or parikalpita svabhava.

So saying "science is imagination" is a basic truth. For example, the shape of the molecular of the benzene ring was discovered in a day-dream. Most of Einstein's developments in science was from what he called "thought experiments" which were nothing more than empirically evaluated imagination.

The person who asserts "global warming is imagination" is using truthful words for a false purpose. What they are really saying is "global warming is false imagination" but they are leaving off the word "false."

Actually, if we don't literalize the imagination, we can say the dinosaurs lived with Adam and Eve, because "Adam and Eve" are alive today as the polarized foundation of imagination in anthropomorphic symbols. The Adam and Eve who lived with the dinosaurs looked like dinosaurs. The idea that the dinosaur Adam and Eve looked like humans is the contrived fancy, not that Adam and Eve lived with the dinosaurs..
jundo wrote:If a fantastic fiction or superstition helps someone, I am all for it.

I'm not, because superstition it doesn't really "help."
jundo wrote:The Buddha called this "Expedient Means", basically a means to help someone who needs that.
No, as I see it, the Buddha didn't call "parikalpita", i.e., the "fully contrived" delusions, by the name of "expedient means." There is a world of difference between the delusions of false conceptualizations and the expedient means of beneficial Buddha dharmas. I think this is a very important point that American Buddhists have not generally digested in their comprehension. Expedient Means is not an "anything goes" attempt to "help" people by telling them convenient lies or superstitions. There may be a superficial similarity but that is all. The living symbol of Kwan Yin is not the same thing as the superstition of a luck rabbit's foot. There is an overlapping aspect due to the personal factors involved in the people who hold either of those images in mind, but there is a fundamental distinction in the psychological function of a symbol and a signification. For example, a stop sign and a mandala may both be octagons, but that similarity does not mean they have the same psychological function. An octagonal road sign does not have the same psychological function as an octagonal mandala.
jundo wrote:It is like the father who, in the Lotus Sutra, promised his kids imagined toys to lure them out of a burning building. If it gives someone strength, comfort and a bit of understanding to think and feel in such terms, I honor that.

Yes, that is an example of expedient means, not of a superstition or lie. The distinction is in the use of the "cart" or "vehicle" as the common denominator. The truth is the One Vehicle, and the expedient means is an alternately described vehicle that is alternatively attractive to people of different dispositions. The father did not try to entice the children with "play houses" as they were in a burning house. Nor did the father try to entice the children with food, or clothes, or whatever. The father still used the symbol of the cart, and the only expediency was in describing the cart in a different manner, not in a lie where there was no cart at all. There is in fact the One Cart, and that was the purpose of the expedient means. So the expedient means is always oriented to a symbol of liberation, which is why Kwan Yin is an expedient means as a living symbol of a being of enlightenment dedicated to the protection of enlightenment, and a rabbit's foot is only for protection of the self is not for enlightenment of the self.
jundo wrote:The only issue for me is when people cling to these stories as truth, and are willing to excommunicate ... or worse ... anyone who does not hold to such "truths", be it very literal visions of rebirth or heaven and hell, the magic powers of a superhuman Buddha, faith healing (which actually does have some psychological powers, but that is a story for another day) over hospitals for child with a curable disease, a Virgin Birth, that the earth was created in 6 days, and the like. If folks need those stories, and it helps people to have faith in them as literally true, I support their doing so. Ok also to take much of this symbolically, holding that "6 days" is actually a timeless description of "6 Billions of years". In fact, it could even be that the earth was created in 6 days (of the ordinary calendar), and only my ignorance prevents me from seeing it as so.

The phrase "people cling to these stories as truth" is not distinguishing among the kinds of stories. Truth is a story. So some stories are stories of truth, they are expedient means. Other stories are stories of contrivances based on self-delusion, they are not expedient means, even if they are erroneously thought to be truth. They are delusions. The Buddha Dharma and Zen is all about how to distinguish stories of truth from stories of delusion, i.e., discerning Buddha stories from Mara stories.

jundo wrote:
But there is also nothing wrong with insisting that science has shown us some solid evidence for how the universe, this planet and our brains work and are put together, and historians a bit about the past, so our myths and stories need not (and perhaps, best not) contradict such facts.
Ahh, who mentioned science is "wrong"? As I see it the question of "error" comes exactly from the idea of "insistence." Science never "insists." Science is a hypothesis. To the extent that "solid evidence" is used for anything more than a working hypothesis, i.e., is used to assert "a truth", then that is what is wrong. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy or circular argument for a limited truth mistaken to be an ultimate truth. The teaching of the trisvabhava or three natures tells us that mistaking a relative truth for the ultimate truth is the nature of contrived truth, i.e., fancy. It is the scientistic scientists who insist on their truth, not the practitioners of science. Here's how a practitioner of the psychological science, Carl Jung, pointed it out.
Carl G. Jung wrote:The separation of psychology from the basic assumptions of biology is purely artificial, because the human psyche lives in indissoluble union with the body. [...]
The third modality points, to use a metaphor, upward and downward, because it has to do with spirit and matter. It is true that matter is in general the subject of physics, but it is also a psychic category, as the history of religion and philosophy clearly shows. And just as matter is ultimately to be conceived of merely as a working hypothesis of physics, so also spirit, the subject of religion and philosophy, is a hypothetical category in constant need of reinterpretation. The so-called reality of matter is attested primarily by our sense-perceptions, while belief in the existence of spirit is supported by psychic experience. Psychologically, we cannot establish anything more final with respect to either matter or spirit than the presence of certain conscious contents, some of which are labelled [SIC] as having a material, and others a spiritual, origin….from the existence of these two categories ethical, aesthetic, intellectual, social, and religious systems of value arise which in the end determine how the dynamic factors in the psyche are to be used. Perhaps it would not be too much to say that the most crucial problems of the individual and of society turn upon the way the psyche functions in regard to spirit and matter. [From "Psychological Factors in Human Behavior" in Collected Works, Vol. 8, ,par. 251.]

What goes for "solid evidence" of "matter" is a psychological category, i.e., a relative truth of the imagination. We do not perceive light. We perceive color according to the way light tickles our specialized sensory cells. Color is the conscious content of light. Light is the conscious content of our extrapolation of the origin of color and shape.
jundo wrote: In fact, ignorance of all kinds is dangerous, and all of us need to recognize the potential for ignorance within ourselves.

Yes, so true. Scientism is now the most dangerous ignorance on the planet because scientism has us climate change and our nuclear brinksmanship with disaster, by both bombs and power plants like Chernobyl and Fukushima. Taking religion literally give people the excuses to kill each other for what are essentially non-religious reasons, but taking science literally gives them the weapons to do it with.
jundo wrote:By some recent surveys, such as this from Gallop ...

More than four in 10 Americans continue to believe that God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago, a view that has changed little over the past three decades. Half of Americans believe humans evolved, with the majority of these saying God guided the evolutionary process.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx


I believe that there is something a little dangerous in that, as much as their is danger in a cold and uncaring beiief in dog-eat-dog Social Darwinism, materialistic "scientific" Marxism and many other extreme beliefs that are just as narrow.

So, yeah, when people hate each other and use their story to justify their hate, that is definitely dangerous. But whether a person believes the earth is 10,000 years old or five billion years old does not determine their hate. One story may be a better hypothesis, but both are just stories set in a network of other stories adding up to belief systems.
When they are dangerous, a belief in an anthropomorphic God and a belief in a "scientific" determinism of history share one important point that makes them dangerous, they are taken literally. Taking a story as literal and making a reified truth out of it is what makes a medicine into a disease.
jundo wrote:But I also believe that Buddhists are often not much better than Christian Creationists and that like, and that many of our oldest and most cherished Buddhist beliefs, Zen legends and assertions are superstitions, really "fake news", without factual basis or sustaining evidence, Nonetheless, people cling to many of these ideas as matters of faith. Some of us, however, feel that we can do without many such superstitions and still do just fine.
So here is where we seem to strongly disagree about Buddha Dharma. I hope it is merely because we have a different use of language.

Exactly which Buddhists are you comparing to “Christian Creationists”? Do you also include “scientist creationists”? Every people in every culture on earth have creation stories. Having a creation story is not the problem per se. From the perspective of the science of analytical psychology, all creation stories are symbolic tellings of how consciousness is created out of the unconscious. That is, a creation story is a projection onto a screen of how our own awareness has come to self-consciousness. Thus the “big bang” theory is a dramatic creation story using the mythic symbology of energy and matter projected onto the "outside" environment, rather than symbols of anthropomorphic gods projected onto a heavenly environment, to tell the story of how consciousness arises and appears from the unconscious.

There is nothing wrong with faith. The question that is important is about where the faith is directed. That is why we have the "Treatist on the Mahayana Arousing of Faith" and the verse "Inscription on Faith in Mind." Buddha Dharma takes refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha and this is faith in mind. Clinging to any idea, even the big bang idea, is a faith story. The basic question is whether the faith story leads to liberation and the hearing, showing, awakening to, and entering the Buddha's knowing and seeing.

I know of no such things "as cherished Buddhist beliefs, Zen legends and assertions [that] are superstitions, really 'fake news', without factual basis or sustaining evidence." That allegation of superstitious Buddhist Beliefs itself appears as a superstition in my view.

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby jundo on Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:34 am

Hi Greg,

You are a very deep and complicated thinker, and I am just a simple Zen fellow. I will just tend my garden and get on with it.

For me, if science discovers that the world is flat or the world is round ... no problem, as we sit Zazen at the center of a world neither flat nor round. That being said, I am pretty sure it is round.

If the historical lineage was just a cut and paste job ... no problem, for the True Lineage connects all beyond line or time. That being said, I am pretty sure that the Platform Sutra was a work of religious and lineage propaganda (worked together by several creative authors over various versions) that contains much timeless Wisdom nonetheless.

Gassho, Jundo

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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby bokki on Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:15 pm

/I am just a simple Zen fellow./
lol now y would u say that? y? u think we cant c..?

cant u c..?
its all exposed
no where 2 run 2

a simple fellow
in the lineage?
no no no!
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Re: Lineage of the Buddhas

Postby jundo on Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:21 pm

bokki wrote:its all exposed
no where 2 run 2



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABbc-O_3_Ac

Gassho, J

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