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Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby Jok_Hae on Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:28 pm

organizational wrote:
Jok_Hae wrote:We have to find out for ourselves.


Very enlightening,
as always.


:)

The Heart Sutra says:

"No attainment with nothing to attain..."

We still have to do something, though.
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby organizational on Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:38 pm

I'm at level 1 according to the ten bulls.

But I've my own method.Which I call the Following White Method or 'White' Method.

I'd shared this some time ago at the forum.

If you read it and share your thoughts about It would be much appreciated;

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=11044&hilit=+following+white+method


regards
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby Ted Biringer on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:47 am

Following is interesting expression in light of this line from the koan in the OP:

師拍手笑云、將謂、胡鬚赤。 更有赤鬚胡。

Hyakujõ clapped his hands with a laugh and exclaimed, "I was thinking that the barbarian had a red beard, but now I see before me the red-bearded barbarian himself."


The dialogue of interest comes from a record of Ejo and Gikai (Gikai was doing koan training with Ejo at the time):

Gikai: I have attained an insight based on our former teacher's saying, "shinjin datsuraku."

Ejo: Good. Good. What do you understand?

Gikai: I understand "datsuraku shinjin."

Ejo: What is the meaning?

Gikai: I had thought only (my) barbarian beard was red, but here is another red-bearded barbarian."


Ejo: Among the many permitted [answers to] shinjin [datsuraku], there is this kind of shinjin.
...

The translator (William M. Bodiford) notes:

Modern Soto scholars cannot accept the Goyuigon account at face value, because to do so would force them either to revise their usual interpretation of Dogen's Zen as a religion of unmediated meditation or to attempt to argue that both Ejo and Gikai had failed to understand Dogen's teachings.
William M. Bodiford, Soto Zen in Medieval Japan, pp.55-56

Peace,
Ted
Do not misunderstand Buddhism by believing the erroneous principle ‘a special tradition outside the scriptures.’ Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo, Bukkyo (trans. Hee-Jin Kim)
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:18 am

Welcome back Ted :heya:
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby bokki on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:46 pm

<One day a student asked me, 'Does a man of enlightenment fall under the yoke of causation or not.
I answered, 'No, he does not.
Since then I have been doomed to undergo five hundred rebirths as a fox.>

on page 1 d case of d fox was well expounded in 6 words,
leaving a need 2 expound further, thoroughly 4 d benefit of any raising doubts

1 may ask

who doomed the monk?
please try 2 answer


zfi looks +++
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby organizational on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:21 pm

aah that love
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby Jok_Hae on Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:24 pm

organizational wrote:I'm at level 1 according to the ten bulls.

But I've my own method.Which I call the Following White Method or 'White' Method.

I'd shared this some time ago at the forum.

If you read it and share your thoughts about It would be much appreciated;

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=11044&hilit=+following+white+method


regards


I left a reply in the thread. :Namaste:
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby bokki on Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:47 pm

thats ok who am i 2 worry
nobody says a word, thats how it should be, no one is here
d fox laps around looking at u expecting
not enough 4 our bodhisattvas
just a feline looking canine,
up to unroot ur smug
dont wry ul be up nxt
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10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby [james] on Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:32 pm

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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby jundo on Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:56 am

Hi,

Rebirth is a dream, a self-created delusion ... like a child's belief in the "boogeyman under the bed." It is the false belief itself which makes him real as real can be (at least, for the child), and our own ignorance and divided thinking which sustain the existence. The "boogeyman" under such conditions is very real. When the lights come on, the "boogeyman" is gone, and was never there all along. Rebirth is likewise such a self-created dream made real in our minds. No birth no death no cause no effect no me no you, so who or what is there to be reborn? There are so many examples in the Mahayana texts ...

Defilements, karmas, doers, rewards, and punishments are all similar to a mirage, a dream, a shadow of light and an echo of voice. (From the Twelve Gate Treatise attributed to Nagarjuna] https://books.google.co.jp/books?redir_ ... ct&f=false


... and yet ...

So long as we are alive in this life and world of you and me, our good and bad actions have effects. Karma is real, and I have seen countless people create "heavens" and "hells" for themselves, if not in some next life, then at least in this one. We are reborn again and again from the pivot point of each moment.

Dogen also had a seemingly conflicting view of the Fox Koan, but was their conflict? Zen Masters often talk "out of both sides of their no sided mouth."

On the one hand, in Shobogenzo-Daishugyo, he seemed to imply that there is nothing to escape from and even the Fox was free all along ... What "return"?

As a rule, those who have never truly encountered or heard about the Buddha Dharma say, “After he had completely rid himself of the wild fox, he returned to the ocean of his Original Nature. Even though he was reduced to being a wild fox for a while due to his delusion, after he had had a great awakening, he shed being a wild fox and returned to his Original Nature.” They mean by this that he returned to some innate, unchanging self which non-Buddhists speak of. [But] this is not the Buddha Dharma. If they were to say that a wild fox is devoid of Original Nature or that a wild fox has no innate enlightenment, such [also] would not be the Buddha Dharma.


He also wrote a few years later in Jinshin inga, critical of those who believe that ... since all is as a dream, how we act has no ramifications ...

In present-day Sung China, among those doing the practice of seated meditation, the folks who are the most in the dark are those who do not know that the teaching of "not being subject to cause and effect" is a false view. Sad to say ... heretical gangs have formed who deny cause and effect. Those who are exploring the Matter through training with their Master should by all means hasten to make clear the fundamental principle of cause and effect. The later Hyakujō’s principle of not being blind to cause and effect means not ignoring the presence of causality. Hence, the underlying principle is clear: we feel the effects of the causes that we put into action.

... To summarize, the principle of cause and effect is quite clear, and it is totally impersonal [in its workings]: those who fabricate evil will fall into a lower state, whereas those who practice good will rise to a higher state, and without the slightest disparity. If cause and effect had become null and void, Buddhas would never have appeared in the world and our Ancestral Master [Bodhidharma] would not have come from the West.


I say that it is all a dream, there is no fox or old Zen Master, no cause or effect, no rebirth and no place to return ... and yet, there are cause and effect and all ramifications. Live gently, live well.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - Hi Ted,

It is good to be in touch and to see you. I ordered your new book. I just have one comment. You write:

The translator (William M. Bodiford) notes:

Modern Soto scholars cannot accept the Goyuigon account at face value, because to do so would force them either to revise their usual interpretation of Dogen's Zen as a religion of unmediated meditation or to attempt to argue that both Ejo and Gikai had failed to understand Dogen's teachings.
William M. Bodiford, Soto Zen in Medieval Japan, pp.55-56


Unfortunately, you leave out all the rest that historian Bodiford said in the paragraphs leading up to that statement, thus leaving it rather out of contect. He says (from page 54) that the document itself is doubtful ...

Gikai's final conversations with Dōgen and his inheriting of Dōgen's Sōtō lineage through Ejō are described in detail in a record supposedly written by Gikai himself, usually known as the Eihei kaisan goyuigon kiroku (Record of the Final Words of the Founder of Eiheiji). 14 This text, however, must be interpreted cautiously. There are difficulties in accepting both its reported historical transmission and its content. Supposedly, Gikai's original manuscript had been copied by Giin, whose reproduction was then recopied by Daichi in 1326. The earliest extant manuscripts, however, go back no earlier than Menzan Zuihō's copy of 1753. 15

Menzan had no misgivings over arbitrarily revising the texts that he copied. For example, Menzan's edition of the early Sōtō history by Kenzei, the Teiho Kenzeiki (1753)—until recently the only version of Kenzei's history widely available—differs considerably from older manuscript versions, all of which are fairly consistent with each other. Likewise, Menzan's published text of Dōgen's Hōkyōki contains nearly 260 emendations. Doubts regarding the history of the Goyuigon text also are raised about its supposed transmission to Giin. His possession of a copy of Gikai's record of the dharma transmission rituals cannot be accounted for unless Giin had been Gikai's dharma heir—a position advocated by Menzan, but now regarded as doubtful. One thus cannot have complete confidence either that the manuscript discovered by Menzan was exactly as Gikai had written it, or that Menzan's recopying was faithful. Yet there is little doubt that some form of the Goyuigon originated with Gikai since another document in Gikai's own handwriting refers to the existence of such a chronicle. 16



There is no doubt that Dogen, Ejo, Gikai and all the lot teach with Koan and sought to pierce the meaning of Koans (me too, for what it is worth).
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby Jok_Hae on Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:37 pm

like a child's belief in the "boogeyman under the bed


Ah, I so missed JC's passive aggressive posts. Nah, just kidding. I didn't miss them at all. :tongueincheek:

round and round...

bokki wrote:

thats ok who am i 2 worry
nobody says a word, thats how it should be, no one is here
d fox laps around looking at u expecting
not enough 4 our bodhisattvas
just a feline looking canine,
up to unroot ur smug
dont wry ul be up nxt


Hi bokki,

Typically, it's considered bad form to discuss kong an's online, unless it's with your teacher. Koan's are like a key and lock. And normally, the the "lock" that accepts the "key" is a teacher who we work with. Discussing them online is kind of like "pissing in the wind". There will be lots of noise, but not a lot in the way of live words.

It's a beautiful koan, and one that actually has made the rounds in my practice recently. I am stuck, to be honest. It's a familiar, frustrating and wonderful feeling, all at once.

Good luck and thanks for practicing,
Keith
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby Michaeljc on Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:04 am

There is no doubt that Dogen, Ejo, Gikai and all the lot teach with Koan and sought to pierce the meaning of Koans (me too, for what it is worth).
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby bokki on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:03 pm

beautiful
there is star dust in my salt
Thank u Mr. Jundo, Mr. Guo.
Thanks Keith,
not an answer would )could(i offer..
LOL,LOL
=here is another red bearded barbarian
now,,, whats ur problem with this??

now,,, ud just worry me 2 much.. IF i were a rich man.. ta ta ta ta nam..

so one sees another red beard..
and they all go up breaking sweat ..lol
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby A Philosopher on Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:03 pm

jundo wrote:Hi,

Rebirth is a dream, a self-created delusion ... like a child's belief in the "boogeyman under the bed." It is the false belief itself which makes him real as real can be (at least, for the child), and our own ignorance and divided thinking which sustain the existence. The "boogeyman" under such conditions is very real. When the lights come on, the "boogeyman" is gone, and was never there all along. Rebirth is likewise such a self-created dream made real in our minds. No birth no death no cause no effect no me no you, so who or what is there to be reborn? There are so many examples in the Mahayana texts ...

Defilements, karmas, doers, rewards, and punishments are all similar to a mirage, a dream, a shadow of light and an echo of voice. (From the Twelve Gate Treatise attributed to Nagarjuna] https://books.google.co.jp/books?redir_ ... ct&f=false


... and yet ...

So long as we are alive in this life and world of you and me, our good and bad actions have effects. Karma is real, and I have seen countless people create "heavens" and "hells" for themselves, if not in some next life, then at least in this one. We are reborn again and again from the pivot point of each moment.

...


Dear Jundo,

if I may, I would like to ask you a clarificatory question about the meaning of words in what you posted. Sometimes we draw a distinction between illusions and delusions. In essence, illusions are grounded in reality but they represent somehow distorted view of reality. By contrast, the term "delusion" is refers to views that have nothing to do with reality (like, e.g., hallucinations). (Bellow to longer quotes from wikipedia expanding on this distinction.)

It would seems to me that so called "ordinary" or "unawakened" or "conventional" or "relative" views on reality are more like illusions than delusions. They are like illusions because, in some ways, they are incomplete. Namely, they neglect the "absolute" point of view (or the point of vie of "shunyatta"). Thus they represent only one "side" of reality. But they are not really like "delusions". For they are grounded in reality; they are not completely divorced from reality (like, e.g., hallucinations).

Is it on the right truck or am I completely missing the point?

_/|\_

=================

An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. Though illusions distort reality, they are generally shared by most people.[1] ... For example, individuals watching a ventriloquist will perceive the voice is coming from the dummy since they are able to see the dummy mouth the words.[2] Some illusions are based on general assumptions the brain makes during perception. These assumptions are made using organizational principles (e.g., Gestalt theory), an individual's capacity for depth perception and motion perception, and perceptual constancy. Other illusions occur because of biological sensory structures within the human body or conditions outside of the body within one’s physical environment.

The term illusion refers to a specific form of sensory distortion. Unlike a hallucination, which is a distortion in the absence of a stimulus, an illusion describes a misinterpretation of a true sensation. For example, hearing voices regardless of the environment would be a hallucination, whereas hearing voices in the sound of running water (or other auditory source) would be an illusion.

...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion


A delusion is a belief that is held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or psychiatric disease, although they are not tied to any particular disorder and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders including schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression.

... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby jundo on Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:48 pm

Hi Philosopher (I am not sure of you name),

The mind is deluded, and illusion is what is seen. Pardon my ordinary and imprecise usage without drawing such fine distinctions. Whether wholly, or just in some large part, a misunderstanding of our thinking, it is as a mirage, a dream, the boogeyman under the bed, horns on the rabbit and a beard on the turtle. When we see the shadows on the wall, we believe the phantom real. From the Lankavatara Sutra, just examples of what can be found in many places in the Sutras ...

It is like a wheel of fire made by a revolving firebrand which is no wheel but which is imagined to be one by the ignorant.
Nor is it a not-a-wheel because it has not been seen by some. By the same reasoning, those who are in the habit of listening
to the discriminations and views of the philosophers will regard things born as non-existent and those destroyed by
causation as existent. It is like a mirror relfecting colors abd images as determined by conditions but without any partiality.
It is like the echo of the wind that gives the sound of a human voice. It is like a mirage of moving water seen in a desert. In
the same way the discriminating mind of the ignorant which has been heated by false-imaginations and speculations is
stirred into mirage-like waves by the winds of birth, growth and destruction. It is like the magician Pisaca, who by means
of his spells makes a wooden image or a dead body to throb with life, through it has no power of its own. In the same way
the ignorant and the simple-minded, committing themselves to erroneous philosphical views become thoroghly devoted to
the ideas of oneness and otherness, but their confidence is not well grounded. For this reason, Mahamati, you and other
Bodhisattvas-Mahasattvas should cast off all discriminations leading to the notions of birth, abiding, and destruction, of
oneness and otherness, of bothness and not-bothness, of being and non-being and thus getting free of the bondage of
habit-energy become able to attain reality realisable wihtin yourselves of Noble Wisdom.

...

I teach the un-bornness of the un-born essence of all things which teaching is established in the minds of the wise by their
self-realisation of Noble Wisdom. A ladle, clay, a vessel, a wheel, or seeds, or elements – these are external conditions;
ignorance, discrimination, attachment, habit, karma, - these are inner conditions. When this entire universe is regarded as
concatenation and as nothing else but concetenation, then the mind, but its patient acceptance of the truth that all things are
un-born, gains tranquility.

...

The Blessed One replied: The beginning lies in the recognition that the external world is only a manifestation of the
activities of the mind itself, and that the mind grasps it as an external world simply because of its habit of discrimination
and false-reasoning. The disciple musy get into the habit of looking at things truthfully. He must recognise the fact that the
world has no self nature, that it is un-born, that it is like a passing cloud, like an imaginary wheel made by a revolving
firebrand, like the castle of the Gandharvas, like the moon reflected in the ocean, like a vision, a mirage, a dream. He must
come to understand that mind in its essence-nature has nothing to do with discrimination nor causation; he must not listen
to discourses based on the imaginary terms and qualifications; he must understand that Universal Mind in its pure essence
is a state of imagelessness, that it is only because of the accumulated defilments on its face that body-property-and-abode
appear to be its manifestations, that in its own pure nature it is unaffected and unaffecting by such changes as rising,
abiding and destruction; he must fully understand that all these things come with the awakening of the notion of an
ego-soul and its conscious mind. Therefore, Mahamati, let those disciples who wish to realise Noble Wisdom by following
the Tathagata Vehicle desist from all discrimination and erroneous reasoning about personality and its sense-world or
about such ideas as causation, rising, abiding and destruction, and exercise themselves in the discipline of dhyana that
leads to the realisation of Noble Wisdom.
https://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&rct=j ... XWxxmxHQJA


By the way, I posted something in another thread from the great modern Theravada teacher, Ajahn Buddhadhasa, that touches on all this. He raised similar objections to what I have mentioned here. He believed in Karma and ethical action in this life, but seemed rather agnostic on future and past lives (which he believed are delusions that should be seen through as "non-self" ).

viewtopic.php?p=186922#p186922

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday
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Re: Case 2 Hyakujo’s Fox Raised

Postby organizational on Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm

A Philosopher wrote:
jundo wrote:Hi,

Rebirth is a dream, a self-created delusion ... like a child's belief in the "boogeyman under the bed." It is the false belief itself which makes him real as real can be (at least, for the child), and our own ignorance and divided thinking which sustain the existence. The "boogeyman" under such conditions is very real. When the lights come on, the "boogeyman" is gone, and was never there all along. Rebirth is likewise such a self-created dream made real in our minds. No birth no death no cause no effect no me no you, so who or what is there to be reborn? There are so many examples in the Mahayana texts ...

Defilements, karmas, doers, rewards, and punishments are all similar to a mirage, a dream, a shadow of light and an echo of voice. (From the Twelve Gate Treatise attributed to Nagarjuna] https://books.google.co.jp/books?redir_ ... ct&f=false


... and yet ...

So long as we are alive in this life and world of you and me, our good and bad actions have effects. Karma is real, and I have seen countless people create "heavens" and "hells" for themselves, if not in some next life, then at least in this one. We are reborn again and again from the pivot point of each moment.

...


Dear Jundo,

if I may, I would like to ask you a clarificatory question about the meaning of words in what you posted. Sometimes we draw a distinction between illusions and delusions. In essence, illusions are grounded in reality but they represent somehow distorted view of reality. By contrast, the term "delusion" is refers to views that have nothing to do with reality (like, e.g., hallucinations). (Bellow to longer quotes from wikipedia expanding on this distinction.)

It would seems to me that so called "ordinary" or "unawakened" or "conventional" or "relative" views on reality are more like illusions than delusions. They are like illusions because, in some ways, they are incomplete. Namely, they neglect the "absolute" point of view (or the point of vie of "shunyatta"). Thus they represent only one "side" of reality. But they are not really like "delusions". For they are grounded in reality; they are not completely divorced from reality (like, e.g., hallucinations).

Is it on the right truck or am I completely missing the point?

_/|\_

=================

An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. Though illusions distort reality, they are generally shared by most people.[1] ... For example, individuals watching a ventriloquist will perceive the voice is coming from the dummy since they are able to see the dummy mouth the words.[2] Some illusions are based on general assumptions the brain makes during perception. These assumptions are made using organizational principles (e.g., Gestalt theory), an individual's capacity for depth perception and motion perception, and perceptual constancy. Other illusions occur because of biological sensory structures within the human body or conditions outside of the body within one’s physical environment.

The term illusion refers to a specific form of sensory distortion. Unlike a hallucination, which is a distortion in the absence of a stimulus, an illusion describes a misinterpretation of a true sensation. For example, hearing voices regardless of the environment would be a hallucination, whereas hearing voices in the sound of running water (or other auditory source) would be an illusion.

...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion


A delusion is a belief that is held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or psychiatric disease, although they are not tied to any particular disorder and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders including schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression.

... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion



Absolutely!

When everthing stop if you keep going on (CLOUDLY) that will create illusion.

Yet, it is what the zen is all about

-the delusion of illusion-

rgds,

///\\\
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