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What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:40 pm

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Guess I better leave

Nope. I'm the one with the leaves. I'm asking that you toot your flute.

Practice makes perfect,

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby partofit22 on Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:25 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
partofit22 wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
partofit22 wrote:If you (general you) hold them to a rank that you (general) want to practice, you'll cling to only that view-

If you do -- General you, or even three or four stars -- then the teacher will sense this and be sure you become purged of that view, and all other views.

That, too, is a view .. that one might become attached to .. and obstruct awakening ..

Err, no. It is an action, not a view, an influence of the teacher's wisdom and compassion upon a student, at the time.

But if you have not experienced this, then it may, can, might be a view, although not a view of the person who has woken up, but yours. Why don't / won't you drop it?

Granted, dropping is not a result of will. It is a result of practice. Why, body and mind themselves fall away, how much moreso views... .

Remember, too, what Av and I know: awakening may not be forever.

And so the Bodhisattva comes back each time, supplied with more skillful means, and more insight. So goes "practice!". There just seems to be no end to it. We're lucky, is my view.

--Joe


It could also be an act- The action could be an act -- like what comes between Act I and Act III- It's important students keep an eye out for such routines, too- It has happened- Not sure how AV fits into this discussion, but since you've brought him up, I bet he knows his own address ..
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:14 pm

Av,

Avisitor wrote:I can tell by your reply that you still don't understand my words.
The veil .. old views .. were pulled aside to see the light
They weren't dissolved.

Nope.

They were dissolved. Otherwise, it's not awakening (at all).

But the nut of the truth of the situation is that the dissolution may not be permanent. As we know.

I'll put it this way: although karma and attachments can indeed be completely dissolved for a time in this life, the dissolution may not be permanent, and new karma can accrete-out (just as proto-planets form and grow by accretion of new material drawn-in gravitationally).

One can however be completely clean, for weeks, months (or maybe more), without trouble from stick-to-ative and stick-to-the-ribs new karma birthed by cavorting insufficiently skillfully with the Poisons (it happens).

We know -- from Buddhist-Teaching, as well as from our own experience (if we've sunk that far at least once to awaken and hence to sense the truth of this) -- that the three poisons arise endlessly (as we also recite daily in our Bodhisattva Vows). Thus, after awakening, if our practice is not completely scrupulous and completely incendiary and incinerative of the residue of the effects on us of the impinging Poisons, then Awakening can close-down again -- by being covered-up, painted-over -- and with this shrouding of body and mind comes the saddening brought about by the dimming of the light.

It usually does eventually close down, after a first (or then second, or third awakening). Eventually, perhaps, the stone stops skipping on the water, and sinks forever below, into the depth of the pelagic or oceanic mass of True Nature. That's when full Buddhahood is established. Meanwhile, maybe it's weeks, months, Awake.

So, practice continues. Practice after awakening is cleaning: daily maintenance, both reparative and preventative.

But I'll say again, make no mistake. When you're clean, you're clean. You can't even whistle that cleanly. The thing is, it's difficult for a newbie to support. It may close down again, as we know, after weeks or months. This is a part of practice. And it instills yet-greater compassion, which becomes yet stronger true Compassion, next Awakening.

You got me going, there. Tnx. Usually I eschew "speaking too plainly", in observance of the Ch'an admonition to that effect. But it's Holiday time. And, I think I've held myself in check here, in writing only as far as I've written. Just the bones. Just the bones.
Disclaimer: The EPA stipulates, "Your mileage may vary". :Namaste:

Drive carefully,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby Avisitor on Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:21 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Avisitor wrote:I can tell by your reply that you still don't understand my words.
The veil .. old views .. were pulled aside to see the light
They weren't dissolved.

Nope.

They were dissolved. Otherwise, it's not awakening (at all).

But the nut of the truth of the situation is that the dissolution may not be permanent. As we know.

--Joe

Yeah, talking about two different things.
There is absolute truth in your words.
I am sorry I can not make myself clear so you can understand

Salt dissolves in water
Yet, the salt is not gone

Feel it really is time to leave.
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:26 am

Avisitor wrote:Feel it really is time to leave.

Suit yourself.

And a nice Tie, too.

And polished shoes.

Be good to see you so decked-out.

--Joe
p.s. Now, now. Don't feign ignorance. It doesn't suit you. I've come to sense this, by now. Kudos, :Namaste:
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:35 am

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Salt dissolves in water
Yet, the salt is not gone

Experience is more like: mosquitoes disperse, due to your doings; but later they may come back if they insist.

When they were "away", you were not at all susceptible to any pestilence.

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby partofit22 on Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:41 am

Experience could also be like turtles-
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:35 pm

partofit22 wrote:Experience could also be like turtles-

Another "may", "might", "could", "can"?

If that's your experience, then it's turtles to you!

I'm telling Av that when you're clean, you're clean. There's not a mosquito. There's just original nature. No mays or mights, and no "cans" of Turtle soup, ...nor hot or cold, thick or watered wishy-washy Vichyssoise.

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby ed blanco on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:03 pm

What good is awakening without some juicy obstructions around it?
:dance:

:O:
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IN SPEECH YOU HEAR ITS SILENCE

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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:07 pm

Ed,

ed blanco wrote:What good is awakening without some juicy obstructions around it?

Cool beans. But that's not the question.

The question you're avoiding is: "What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening".

Zen Buddhist Master Dogen taught that it is one's old views. But he says this in a context of speaking to an audience of a population of monastics engaged 24 hours per day in practice. And he emphasizes that it is views that form the obstruction.

For lay people, it is probably also views. But I would say it is likely fundamentally other factors as well. First of all, lay people are not monastics: their practice may not be at a high pitch, as it is in a monastic community. And their -- our -- practice may not be very correct.

There may be many more factors. But views pretty likely form a part of the constellation.

best,

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby ed blanco on Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:44 pm

I can see I am not my views.
But almost, like picking at a scab.
Maybe trade in some views for some awakening?

:O:
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IN SPEECH YOU HEAR ITS SILENCE

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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby Michaeljc on Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:10 pm

"What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening"

While one can only comment on one's own perception, I sense that this is major question that arises for most of us at one time or another. For those seeking the goal as describe in Buddhism it can become a nagging frustration. Good!

It is as good a koan as any. I have found it to be very fruitful should we/I immerse deeply into it as a part of practice - particularly during Zazen.

:Namaste:

m
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:35 pm

Ed,

ed blanco wrote:I can see I am not my views.

Hmm. That's problematic, I think. Both intellectually and in terms of, say, Zen Buddhist practice.

I think that if one finds something that you are NOT, it means trouble;
And if one finds something that one IS, it means trouble.

It means that one is still thinking in terms of being something, if one finds something that one is, or is not.

In other words, one actually has a view of what one ("really"... ) is. Or, one protests that one is not something else (and therefore must also have a view of what one is, instead).

I'd say that all this is based on a basic pollution.

Views... .

No blame! Just saying... . :heya:

Dogen, in the Genjokoan wrote:

"The myriad [10000-] things are without an abiding self."

And, now:

ed blanco wrote:But almost, like picking at a scab.
Maybe trade in some views for some awakening?

Someone has said (a Soto person?):

    "One hour of zazen, one hour of awakening;
    five minutes of zazen, five minutes of awakening;
    no zazen, no awakening."

(But I'm with Michael, who expressed here once that, when it comes to zazen, longer sits are particularly nutritious [or something]. And I'll add: YES, if one can do that regularly).

Oh, and BTW, further on zazen generally, Aitken Roshi said, even with our various other practices besides sitting, that:

"Without zazen, there is no Awakening, and no realization of the practice."

Well, I'm just chatting, and remembering some treasured voices.

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby partofit22 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:33 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
partofit22 wrote:Experience could also be like turtles-

Another "may", "might", "could", "can"?

If that's your experience, then it's turtles to you!

I'm telling Av that when you're clean, you're clean. There's not a mosquito. There's just original nature. No mays or mights, and no "cans" of Turtle soup, ...nor hot or cold, thick or watered wishy-washy Vichyssoise.

--Joe


Clean is impermanent- Mosquito, sky, turtle and tree- May and June- Might and can- Nothing lasts-
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:39 am

p., T.,

partofit22 wrote:Clean is impermanent- Mosquito, sky, turtle and tree- May and June- Might and can- Nothing lasts-

You're just repeating my observations, here. Awakening is not (usually) permanent. Thanks. Kudos.

But neither is Life permanent. Not in this life, ...nohow.

"Spam-In-A-'Can", the original Seven Mercury Astronauts did not want to be.

R.I.P., Senator Astronaut John Glenn (1921-2016; b., Cambridge, OHIO)

--Joe

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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby partofit22 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:19 am

desert_woodworker wrote:p., T.,

partofit22 wrote:Clean is impermanent- Mosquito, sky, turtle and tree- May and June- Might and can- Nothing lasts-

You're just repeating my observations, here. Awakening is not (usually) permanent. Thanks. Kudos.

But neither is Life permanent. Not in this life, ...nohow.

"Spam-In-A-'Can", the original Seven Mercury Astronauts did not want to be.

R.I.P., Senator Astronaut John Glenn (1921-2016; b., Cambridge, OHIO)

--Joe

j_glenn_helmet.jpg


merc_seven_all_med.jpg


Cornered the market did ya? :) No worries- It won't last- :) I was just repeating you, repeating yourself, repeating somebody else- :)
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:35 am

p., T., who?,

partofit22 wrote:I was just repeating you, repeating yourself, repeating somebody else- :)

Surely.

Do I know you? ;)

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby ed blanco on Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:40 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Ed,

ed blanco wrote:I can see I am not my views.

Hmm. That's problematic, I think. Both intellectually and in terms of, say, Zen Buddhist practice.

I think that if one finds something that you are NOT, it means trouble;
And if one finds something that one IS, it means trouble.

It means that one is still thinking in terms of being something, if one finds something that one is, or is not.

In other words, one actually has a view of what one ("really"... ) is. Or, one protests that one is not something else (and therefore must also have a view of what one is, instead).

I'd say that all this is based on a basic pollution.

Views... .

No blame! Just saying... . :heya:

Dogen, in the Genjokoan wrote:

"The myriad [10000-] things are without an abiding self."

And, now:

ed blanco wrote:But almost, like picking at a scab.
Maybe trade in some views for some awakening?

Someone has said (a Soto person?):

    "One hour of zazen, one hour of awakening;
    five minutes of zazen, five minutes of awakening;
    no zazen, no awakening."

(But I'm with Michael, who expressed here once that, when it comes to zazen, longer sits are particularly nutritious [or something]. And I'll add: YES, if one can do that regularly).

Oh, and BTW, further on zazen generally, Aitken Roshi said, even with our various other practices besides sitting, that:

"Without zazen, there is no Awakening, and no realization of the practice."

Well, I'm just chatting, and remembering some treasured voices.

--Joe


Thank you Joe.
Gotta get breakfast in first.
Right off the cushion I say 'someone' is got to get awaken.
Who?
But it is clear that "I WAS NEVER HERE.''
Then who?

:O:
IT SPEAKS IN SILENCE
IN SPEECH YOU HEAR ITS SILENCE

Yongjia Xuanjue
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:26 pm

Ed,

Reminds me of the syncopated singing of a song on the playground in elementary school.

Kids would gather in a circle, facing in, and one would start singing,

"Who stole the cook-ie from the cook-ie jar? Was it YOU?", and the kid would turn to the left, and the kid clockwise to her or him, would then say, "Who, ME?, COULDN'T be", and everyone would sing, "Then, WHO?", and the same kid singled-out last time would then turn to the left, to the next kid clockwise in the circle, and say, "Was it YOU?!", and that kid would say, "Who, ME?, COULDN'T be", and everyone would say, "Then, WHO?!", and so on, around the circle, until coming back to the kid who started it off. Or, maybe it would go around the circle a few times.

Haven't thought of this in well over 50 years, I think. Thanks, Ed!

--Joe
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