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What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:45 pm

Yes.

I'd opine that the most pervasive, perfusive, and pernicious 'old-view' obstruction is the very "I" that you mentioned which "tries", "paddles", "reaches toward", etc., believing and treating "itself" to be real, and protecting itself (...from ever awakening to true Nature).

That delusive view is probably the hardest to dissolve -- or to have dissolved -- and is another reason why a teacher and sangha are so necessary, with whom to learn and undertake to engage true and correct practice.

That view probably does not prevent many people from engaging in true and correct Buddhist practice, but the eventual effective dissolution of that view via practice certainly validates true and correct practice. :)

"Good work if you can get it," ;)

--Joe

lobster wrote:Some great posts.

I know the biggest obstacle for me was trying to remove obstacles, paddle to the far shore like a Buddha trying to be a Bodhisattva or a jihadhi trying to reach heavenly virgins.
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:09 am

Avisitor wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:
Avisitor wrote:Now, here ... What's Obstructing (one's) Awakening??


One's imagination :heya:

Which one?
The imagination that one uses to be creative??
Or the imagination that uses one to live??


That one!
Everyone for President!
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby Avisitor on Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:45 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
Avisitor wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:
Avisitor wrote:Now, here ... What's Obstructing (one's) Awakening??


One's imagination :heya:

Which one?
The imagination that one uses to be creative??
Or the imagination that uses one to live??


That one!

Yes, no separation!!
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby Avisitor on Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:22 am

desert_woodworker wrote:That delusive view is probably the hardest to dissolve -- or to have dissolved -- and is another reason why a teacher and sangha are so necessary, with whom to learn and undertake to engage true and correct practice.

It isn't the old view that needs to be dissolved
(At Sesshin) Some have seen those with incorrect views and morals to have kensho
If one engages in true and correct practice then the views and morals will change accordingly to one's pracrtice

The truth is one needs a real teacher to give us the push in the correct direction
The rest will follow or the experience just fades into a memory of something in the past
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby Pemako on Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:35 am

The constant need to attain "something".
"The victorious ones have said
That emptiness is the relinquishing of all views.
For whomever emptiness is a view,
That one has accomplished nothing."
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:48 am

Av,

Avisitor wrote:It isn't the old view that needs to be dissolved
(At Sesshin) Some have seen those with incorrect views and morals to have kensho

In the run-up to the onset of kensho, the practitioner must have dropped any old views. Let's say, ALL views.

Yes, a teacher's and sangha's help enables this dropping of views, and allows deep sitting, Samadhi, and then the eventual sudden breakup of Samadhi and the dawning of awakening, and onset of freedom and ease of body and mind (and arising of true Wisdom and true Compassion), all quite suddenly. Well, not to put too fine a point on it, or speak too plainly. There may be variations.

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby Avisitor on Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:24 pm

Practice does not guarantee awakening or anything
It is only with a teacher who has the ability to spur the disciple further will there ever be a chance of an experience of kensho
Whether correct views or dissolved views ... matters where the teacher can lead the student ... all else follows

I am sure you speak from your own experience
And there is only truth in your words

The mind is grass and tree
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:46 am

Av,

Yeah, so? Non-practice guarantees non-awakening (That's the safest bet in town).

But you're speaking of correct practice, which I'd agree includes teacher and sangha -- just as Nonin Roshi often pointed out succinctly to inquirers here -- and occasional intensive practice periods.

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby Avisitor on Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:36 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Yeah, so? Non-practice guarantees non-awakening (That's the safest bet in town).

But you're speaking of correct practice, which I'd agree includes teacher and sangha -- just as Nonin Roshi often pointed out succinctly to inquirers here -- and occasional intensive practice periods.

--Joe

Okay, calm down.
You're breaking it up and focusing on parts of my statement instead of the whole message

The topic is what is obstructing one's awakening
And to that I simply say it is the need to have a competent teacher that can lead the disciple further along
Correct view, correct practice are not a guarantee of awakening
One can not will oneself to awakening by due process and practice
Something else is needed. And it is a teacher who has this knowledge and can pass it along.

I don't mention sangha much. But, we know that it is the thing which keeps one aligned to practice everyday

I am sorry if you mis-understand my words.
I am answering the topic question
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby partofit22 on Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:50 pm

It appears that competent teachers also encounter obstructions on their path/s- Holding them to a higher rank than just another soul who happens upon a boulder blocking the road, and sees a boulder blocking the road, may be one thing that obstructs awakening-
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:54 pm

The "message" is that Dogen writes that it is one's "old views" that obstruct awakening.

Returning to square one, and keeping it simple.

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:01 pm

P.,

partofit22 wrote:Holding them to a higher rank than just another soul who happens upon a boulder blocking the road, and sees a boulder blocking the road, may be one thing that obstructs awakening-

Yes, it "may".

(And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon).

Sure, teachers are Human. That is a factor that qualifies them to teach us. Of course, trees, grasses, and stars also teach.

--Joe

p.s. I'd say you only go to teachers if you "hold them to another rank". A rank that qualifies them to teach what you want to practice. Granted, without faith in oneself (one's ability to practice), faith in the Dharma, and faith in the teacher, and methods of practice, there is no likelihood of awakening.
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby partofit22 on Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:50 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:P.,

partofit22 wrote:Holding them to a higher rank than just another soul who happens upon a boulder blocking the road, and sees a boulder blocking the road, may be one thing that obstructs awakening-

Yes, it "may".

(And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon).

Sure, teachers are Human. That is a factor that qualifies them to teach us. Of course, trees, grasses, and stars also teach.

--Joe

p.s. I'd say you only go to a teachers if you "hold them to another rank". A rank that qualifies them to teach what you want to practice. Granted, without faith in oneself (one's ability to practice), faith in the Dharma, and faith in the teacher, and methods of practice, there is no likelihood of awakening.


If you (general you) hold them to a rank that you (general) want to practice, you'll cling to only that view-
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby Avisitor on Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:25 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:The "message" is that Dogen writes that it is one's "old views" that obstruct awakening.

Returning to square one, and keeping it simple.

--Joe

Small Kensho, Big Kensho, ... the old views do not just completely disappear suddenly
Pulling the veil to one side allows one to see the light
But, it doesn't remove the veil
And then the experience fades into a memory of something in the past
Ego comes back ... sometimes better for it and sometimes ... knows no bounds to the ridiculous aggrandizement of self

It is just the beginning. Square one.
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:33 pm

partofit22 wrote:If you (general you) hold them to a rank that you (general) want to practice, you'll cling to only that view-

If you do -- General you, or even three or four stars -- then the teacher will sense this and be sure you become purged of that view, and all other views.

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:35 pm

Av,

Yes, we (all?) already know that awakening may not be permanent.

Got anything else / better?

--Joe

ps Dogen was not for abandoning practice after a first awakening. Well, his writings certainly don't show such teaching.
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby partofit22 on Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:06 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
partofit22 wrote:If you (general you) hold them to a rank that you (general) want to practice, you'll cling to only that view-

If you do -- General you, or even three or four stars -- then the teacher will sense this and be sure you become purged of that view, and all other views.

--Joe


That, too, is a view .. that one might become attached to .. and obstruct awakening ..
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:25 pm

partofit22 wrote:That, too, is a view .. that one might become attached to .. and obstruct awakening ..

Yes. And that's a point for some other thread you yourself may start, say, one on "Infinite Regression", ...where even you cannot have the last word.

A teacher is thorough with a student (if there's that possibility afforded by both). Naturally-ruthlessly-compassionate. Showing no compassion for the ravaging delusions one entertains, and which entertain (and afflict) one. See what views you can force yourself to recall -- much less hold! -- after an episode of awakening (granted, awakening may be very rare in the gen'l population, as well as rare in a practitioner's life[time] experience). Nothing moves, yet this marvelous Mind and marvelous Nature ever display playful transformations.

Now -- anyone -- any thoughts on what Dogen has in mind in the OP?

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:45 pm

partofit22 wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
partofit22 wrote:If you (general you) hold them to a rank that you (general) want to practice, you'll cling to only that view-

If you do -- General you, or even three or four stars -- then the teacher will sense this and be sure you become purged of that view, and all other views.

That, too, is a view .. that one might become attached to .. and obstruct awakening ..

Err, no. It is an action, not a view, an influence of the teacher's wisdom and compassion upon a student, at the time.

But if you have not experienced this, then it may, can, might be a view, although not a view of the person who has woken up, but yours. Why don't / won't you drop it?

Granted, dropping is not a result of will. It is a result of practice. Why, body and mind themselves fall away, how much moreso views... .

Remember, too, what Av and I know: awakening may not be forever.

And so the Bodhisattva comes back each time, supplied with more skillful means, and more insight. So goes "practice!". There just seems to be no end to it. We're lucky, is my view.

--Joe
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Re: What's Obstructing (One's) Awakening

Postby Avisitor on Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:18 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Yes, we (all?) already know that awakening may not be permanent.

Got anything else / better?

--Joe

ps Dogen was not for abandoning practice after a first awakening. Well, his writings certainly don't show such teaching.

Hmm, it is true that a person sees only what they have the ability to see
I can tell by your reply that you still don't understand my words.
The veil .. old views .. were pulled aside to see the light
They weren't dissolved. So although they might be an obstruction, the true obstruction is your hand not moving the veil.
And for that a true teacher is needed.

And say for an example, a blind person from birth is suddenly given the ability of sight
The person can make no sense of the vision before their eyes due to never have seen an image before

Got anything else / better??
I am sorry that I am not entertaining enough for you.
Guess I better leave
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