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Kant - Nomenual and Phenomenual worlds

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Re: Kant - Nomenual and Phenomenual worlds

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:27 am

Linda, yes, there is "phenomena", and then there is True Nature.

Quite as in what I tell people about the grey or white hair that you mention, "Don't let the grey hair FOOL you, it's NOT my natural hair color."

I hope you're able to include photos any time you want, with posts. In order to resize images first, just use a favorite image-manipulation program, to make a smaller (file-size) copy of any pic. "Have image-editor, will travel!" ;)

--Joe

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Re: Kant - Nomenual and Phenomenual worlds

Postby Ted Biringer on Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:03 am

Lunarious1987 wrote:These two words. Is the Nomenual world the world one awakens to?
And the other world where one is now? Samsara?

Peace


Thank you for your post.

Just a couple points:

First, it should be understood that the notion of 'noumenal realities' (noumenon) is not only purely speculative by nature and in direct opposition to our actual experience, it is inherently unverifiable.

The term or notion 'noumenal' is understood as referring to a nonexperiential (i.e. non-phenomenal) reality - a reality distinct from, or other than phenomenal (phenomena, phenomenon) reality.

From the Zen standpoint (or any nondual perspective for that matter) the actual existence or nonexistence of such a reality is utterly irrelevant to sentient beings - if it is nonexperiential it can have no influence on us, if it can have influence on us it is not nonexperiential.

In this sense, Zen (and nondual traditions generally) can be understood to be a kind of "radical phenomenalism" (as coined by Hee-Jin Kim).

In sum, from the Zen perspective, whatever exists is experiential (phenomenal), whatever is nonexperiential (noumenal) does not exist - at least in any way at all relevant to Zen practitioners (sure, nonexperiential realms could exist, but we could never know it or be influenced by it in any way).

Peace,
Ted
Do not misunderstand Buddhism by believing the erroneous principle ‘a special tradition outside the scriptures.’ Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo, Bukkyo (trans. Hee-Jin Kim)
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Re: Kant - Nomenual and Phenomenual worlds

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:42 am

Prof. D.T. Suzuki was one of the invited guests at a multi-day symposium and conference held at the University of Hawai'i in the 1950s.

The topic of the meeting was, "The Nature of Reality".

Robert Aitken (later Roshi) was, I believe, the organizer of the conference, while he wrote his Master's thesis at UH (which thesis resulted later in his book, A Zen Wave -- Basho's Haiku and Zen).

The American musician and composer John Cage (*), who was interested in Zen Buddhism, attended the conference, and later gave an account that went like this:

The invited guests sat at a table in front, and made presentations of papers and comments. At certain points each day, "round-table" discussions took place, and questions and comments were solicited from all in attendance. In one round-table discussion, someone from the floor addressed a question to Suzuki:

Questioner: "Dr. Suzuki, would you say that the table in front of you is real? In what sense is it real?"

Suzuki: "In every sense."

--Joe

(*) Cage gives his account in film footage included in the PBS TV feature, "American Masters -- John Cage".
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Re: Kant - Nomenual and Phenomenual worlds

Postby Denial on Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:35 am

Ted Biringer wrote:sure, nonexperiential realms could exist, but we could never know it or be influenced by it in any way

I mostly agree. However, we could theoretically be "influenced" by the non-experiential, yet then that influence itself would be experiential. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody's around to hear it, does it make a sound? Suppose, for argument sake, that tree belonged to the non-experiential, with the sound, sight, etc. of it (and its falling) being experiential. When we're there to hear it, it makes a sound. When we're not, it doesn't matter, as it now has no current relation to the experiential. Does the tree make a sound non-experientially? Does it even exist non-experientially? These questions are impossible to answer; it is a paradox, for as soon as we answer, it becomes experiential. So can we be influenced by it? There is no certainty here, however what is important isn't how it influences, but the would-be influence itself, which is experiential.
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Re: Kant - Nomenual and Phenomenual worlds

Postby macdougdoug on Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:18 pm

Sound is experientiel.

Even "soundwaves" i suppose are "experienced" by whatever's being waved.
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Re: Kant - Nomenual and Phenomenual worlds

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:29 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Questioner: "Dr. Suzuki, would you say that the table in front of you is real? In what sense is it real?"

Suzuki: "In every sense."

--Joe

:lol2:

Too bad the question is false :tongueincheek:
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Re: Kant - Noumenal and Phenomenal worlds

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:16 pm

F.,
fukasetsu wrote:Too bad the question is false :tongueincheek:

Even though you represent what you say there as 'tongue-in-cheek', I'd like to understand it.

Please, what do you mean?

tnx,

--Joe

p.s. (I, too, enjoy the Prof.' s rather profound -- and succinct -- answer).

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Re: Kant - Noumenal and Phenomenal worlds

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:03 am

desert_woodworker wrote:F.,
fukasetsu wrote:Too bad the question is false :tongueincheek:

Even though you represent what you say there as 'tongue-in-cheek', I'd like to understand it.

Please, what do you mean?

tnx,

--Joe

p.s. (I, too, enjoy the Prof.' s rather profound -- and succinct -- answer).

Prof_D_T_Suzuki.jpg


Joe,

First of all yes very profound (yet so obvious) "in every sense"

What I mean with the falsity of the question is that when one someone ask about the reality or unreality about a table, that already shows one's delusion, ofcourse there's no answer regarding whether the object is "real or unreal"
So on what does the question depend?
The prof gave an excellent answer which points to the nature of perception (every sense) but did the questionair get it? did he not? The answer was compassionate but still a medicine, and still a danger for literalists, those who affirm and negate in duality. That's why I say for medicine's sake the question is false, but that's my style. Though I'm no teacher and I might be off in the direction of Suzuki, then please tell me.

ps that pic just "melts my heart" reminds me of Ramana Maharashi with squirrels
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