Welcome admin !

It is currently Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:50 pm
Pathway:  Board index Zen Discussion Forum Zen Practice & Philosophy Zen Buddhism

Imagination

Discussions of Zen Buddhism in all shapes and sizes.

Re: Imagination

Postby [james] on Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:48 pm

partofit22 wrote:So when you apply imagination to your practice (or tasks), it expands your practice (or tasks) -- but it doesn't inhabit your practice (or tasks) like it would inhabit your wandering mind --- which is neither- (practice or task)


The freedom of imagination, as "I" see it, is to influence, in a wholesome way, whatever practice I am involved with. I am not actively applying imagination. I am simply not refusing it nor blocking its influence. If imagination inhabits a task or a practice, that task/practice expands naturally in scope of possibility and influence.

Wandering mind, whether I call it mine or not, is the everyday reality "I" inhabit. As such it is the focus of practice. Imagination is an aspect of wandering mind that I find to be valuable in shaping practice to look at "wandering mind".
User avatar
[james]
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 am

Re: Imagination

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:24 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Fuki,


I suggest instead that we increase our time for zazen sitting a little, and include some more physical practice each day, too.

But maybe that's what you mean? ;)

Guo Gu, and his students, will surely exemplify for all attending how to go about this when you attend the Chan retreat with him (coming up soon?). All best!,

_/\_ ,

--Joe

dharma_drum_Chan_retreat_center.jpg

Joe,

Among other things, there's plenty of room for funky in all things.
I haven't received any news regarding the date or when the new center/temple is completed.
I abide patiently in the uncreate :tongueincheek:

ps not much physical practise for me at the moment, still recovering from the incident.
Then again more time for visitors who are deluded I have something to offer.
Differences are never in opposition.
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6703
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Imagination

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:05 am

F.,

fukasetsu wrote:Then again more time for visitors who are deluded I have something to offer.

The visitors are Bodhisattvas, skilfully disguised (or, maybe they're totally in-the-open).

Hoping you recover fully!, and that the upcoming retreat is full of strong practice, for all.

(meanwhile, whatever phys. practices you can do to help posture, relaxation, flexibility, strength, and stamina, it would be very good to exercise these a lot, very mindfully, in preparation for retreat, for weeks and months, before retreat. You'll be glad you did! It will also help others for you to do so).

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6493
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Imagination

Postby partofit22 on Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:16 pm

[james] wrote:
partofit22 wrote:So when you apply imagination to your practice (or tasks), it expands your practice (or tasks) -- but it doesn't inhabit your practice (or tasks) like it would inhabit your wandering mind --- which is neither- (practice or task)


The freedom of imagination, as "I" see it, is to influence, in a wholesome way, whatever practice I am involved with. I am not actively applying imagination. I am simply not refusing it nor blocking its influence. If imagination inhabits a task or a practice, that task/practice expands naturally in scope of possibility and influence.

Wandering mind, whether I call it mine or not, is the everyday reality "I" inhabit. As such it is the focus of practice. Imagination is an aspect of wandering mind that I find to be valuable in shaping practice to look at "wandering mind".


I believe present day teachers of Zen also present similar in talks and literature- I understood Marcel's "I"/mine comment- It's simply easier to communicate using I, me, mine -- at least most of the time- Have a great weekend-
partofit22
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:36 pm

Re: Imagination

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:51 pm

Helen Tworkov, Founder and Editor of TRICYCLE Magazine, has some words on awakening and imagination in the Afterword of her book, Zen In America -- Five Teachers and the Search for an American Buddhism (1989 and 1994); Kodansha; p. 266:

    "What we need to know cannot arise from what we know now. Our liberation from personal and collective suffering must derive from what we cannot envision, what is beyond our imagination, even beyond our dreams of what is possible".
--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6493
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Imagination

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:13 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Helen Tworkov, Founder and Editor of TRICYCLE Magazine, has some words on awakening and imagination in the Afterword of her book, Zen In America -- Five Teachers and the Search for an American Buddhism (1989 and 1994); Kodansha; p. 266:

    "What we need to know cannot arise from what we know now. Our liberation from personal and collective suffering must derive from what we cannot envision, what is beyond our imagination, even beyond our dreams of what is possible".
--Joe



Ofcourse since all what we think or envision to make one happy or liberated or free is always derived from outside of oneself, thus it is counter productive. It's like the looking for elephant footprints outside while you have one in your home story.
Differences are never in opposition.
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6703
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Imagination

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:00 pm

Can this be extended to a greater portion of the society(ies), so that not just a few individuals can benefit, but more people, society, the environment, and all beings can indeed benefit? The question then becomes, ...how to do so.

Without a genuine awakening, and the experience of life in emptiness, people cannot personally relate to the core values and core teachings of Buddhism. I think that without widespread practice, such an extension of the results and benefits of knowledge of true nature and reality is going to be fraught with disbelief -- and shallow or tangential appreciation -- on the large scale. That is, unless Buddhist practice itself can be very much "popularized", in that many more people participate in it, have good cooperating causes, and can awaken.

Let's say, at least one person in each family who has genuinely awakened at least once could have a big influence and benefit.

(and what a pity if only as few as one person per family can genuinely awaken, and all the others must remain in ignorance!).

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6493
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Imagination

Postby Spike on Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:02 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Can this be extended to a greater portion of the society(ies), so that not just a few individuals can benefit, but more people, society, the environment, and all beings can indeed benefit? The question then becomes, ...how to do so.


As Rambo said to the sheriff in the woods, "Let it go ..." Spoiler alert: he finds his own 'way'.)

Without a genuine awakening, and the experience of life in emptiness, people cannot personally relate to the core values and core teachings of Buddhism.


Oh, my, Yess, Absoluutely. The ignorant fools! How could they?

(Hey, but at least you spelled 'personally' right! I always want to use two n's)

Buddhism is just a ‘Way’, one of many ways**. Just like the Catholics saying, “unless you are baptized as a Catholic, when you die you can’t go straight to heaven”. Plus: you are no judge of other people (only *i*, in all glorious magnificence, am).

I think that without widespread practice, such an extension of the results and benefits of knowledge of true nature and reality is going to be fraught with disbelief -- and shallow or tangential appreciation -- on the large scale.


So, so fraught, indeed!

“Shallow and tangential” … jeez, more of same.

That is, unless Buddhist practice itself can be very much "popularized", in that many more people participate in it, have good cooperating causes, and can awaken.


And clearly, this ain’t happenin’. Look at a picture of most average community sanghas: older demographic. And monochrome: mostly no blacks, or even Asian Americans... If this here deser-twerker forum international site had analytics, I’d bet 50 cent that the same demographic holds true here. (And: the participation rate here is in the doldrums, to say the least).

Let's say, at least one person in each family who has genuinely awakened at least once could have a big influence and benefit. (and what a pity if only as few as one person per family can genuinely awaken, and all the others must remain in ignorance!).


“what a pity…!”

Oy!

**Cue the Fleetwood:

Loving you {Bu}
Isn't the right thing to do
(How can I ever change things
That I feel {indeed})

...

If I could
Maybe I'd give you my world
Open up
Everything's waiting for you
You can go your own way
Go your own way
You can call it
Another lonely day
You can go your own way
Go your own way
Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow --R.H.
User avatar
Spike
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:15 pm

Re: Imagination

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:12 pm

Movies and music on the brain, there, I see. And why not.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6493
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Imagination

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:20 pm

I didn't know sarcasm was a music style
Differences are never in opposition.
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6703
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Imagination

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:26 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Let's say, at least one person in each family who has genuinely awakened at least once could have a big influence and benefit.


I've struggled with this for years in the past, good thing about it is when you stop preaching or thinking you've got the ace, family around you changes because they see that's it's possible to behave another way then what they're used to due to habit energy. But I'm more into baby steps of Human behaviour then " genuine awakening" if family would apply a speck of wisdom so they'd stop the self pity and self abuse which means pointing and talking and mentally absusing others of the family I'd be happy with that wee step
Differences are never in opposition.
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6703
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Imagination

Postby Spike on Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:15 am

fukasetsu wrote:I didn't know sarcasm was a music style



Sergei Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 3: its beautifully melodic lines are interrupted in many places by sarcastic, almost self-parodying sections

Charles ives' Three Places in New England - II. Putnam's Camp: its version of Sousa marches certainly puts a smile on my face (Laszlo Tamas)

Erik Satie considered himself a "gymnopedist" and "phonometrician" ... rather than a musician, and wrote many mock-classical works ("The Dreamy FIsh" ...)

-complied by Laszlo Tamas

But this is not your point, right? Could be off-base, though, because my appreciation of my own "knowledge of true nature and reality is [probably] fraught ... and shallow or tangential"
Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow --R.H.
User avatar
Spike
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:15 pm

Re: Imagination

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:21 am

Thanks Spiky I forgot about my point it was like a hour ago I think.

I come from a family of classical music, and I love it despite being the heavy metal one in the family,
I often enjoy my uncles playing piano for me, I only know Satie from those you've mentioned
I'll take a listen to your list.
Differences are never in opposition.
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6703
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Imagination

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:33 am

F.,

fukasetsu wrote:But I'm more into baby steps of Human behaviour then " genuine awakening" <snip>

I take your reporting as true and accurate.

But...

...see how it all looks after that first long Chan retreat. Or after a few of them.

A step from a hundred foot pole can be a baby step.

Just wishing you the best... . And everyone here. The unimaginable, very, best. --Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6493
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Imagination

Postby [james] on Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:05 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Helen Tworkov, Founder and Editor of TRICYCLE Magazine, has some words on awakening and imagination in the Afterword of her book, Zen In America -- Five Teachers and the Search for an American Buddhism (1989 and 1994); Kodansha; p. 266:

    "What we need to know cannot arise from what we know now. Our liberation from personal and collective suffering must derive from what we cannot envision, what is beyond our imagination, even beyond our dreams of what is possible".
--Joe


From the "Song of Zazen"

Hakuin Ekaku Zenji wrote:
At this moment, what more need we seek?
As the truth eternally reveals itself,
This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
This very body is the Body of the Buddha.


which my practice and imagination understands as: there is no must about it. Liberation, awakening, arises ceaselessly from the conditions of the moment. If awakening cannot arise in this very moment as is, how can it possibly arise otherwise? All we are doing in practice is allowing a readiness and responsiveness to this endless reality of awakening. Gathering up, and refining anew, the dust.
User avatar
[james]
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 am

Re: Imagination

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:42 pm

James,

[james] wrote:If awakening cannot arise in this very moment as is, how can it possibly arise otherwise? All we are doing in practice is allowing a readiness and responsiveness to this endless reality of awakening. Gathering up, and refining anew, the dust.

If not this moment, then the next moment.

It (all) depends on one's preparation (overall and ongoing practice... ), as I think you say. And it depends on causes and conditions, which either cooperate or delay and deny things. Do not despair!

Yes, a Soto view is close to what I think you represent here (though not entirely). But there is a Rinzai view, which is that awakening can be given a push (by giving a push to practice, performed closely with a teacher).

Since the Zen Buddhist literature (and other Buddhist) is replete with accounts of awakenings, I would think that you could plainly see how it happens that, at one moment there is no awakening, and at a subsequent moment, there is. Purists even need look no further than the founder Shakyamuni Buddha's own biography for that matter.

So, pls. don't muddy the waters. Although, ...I think your post regardless may actually be meant to subtly encourage and to cheer-up, and not to deny or demean the reality of Sudden Awakening in the Ch'an and Zen school.

I hope so.

And, that is, I hope you do not actually espouse a form of Buji zen (because if so, the present moment may in that case never be an example of awakened-mind, and this Buji-zen would not be a good doctrine to popularize here since it does not lead to an end to suffering nor to freedom within our original nature, nor to any benefit to self and others).

Well, take a breath... .

--Joe

p.s. Master Hakuin wrote from the p.o.v. (experience... ) of an awakened person, make no mistake there.

p.p.s. As for the "must" of the Tworkov quote, I recall a funny encounter. In a men's room at a diner in NY, I saw a sign posted by the management: "EMPLOYEES MUST WASH HANDS BEFORE LEAVING THIS ROOM". Some thoughtful philosopher scrawled in handwriting below this the graffito, "Customers should, also".

p.p.p.s.
[james] wrote:Gathering up, and refining anew, the dust.

Sixth Patriarch has a nice "rebuttal" to this attitude in his winning poem. Yet, you otherwise try to represent that you hold the Sixth Patriarch's view! :tongueincheek:
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6493
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Imagination

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:37 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Just wishing you the best... . And everyone here. The unimaginable, very, best. --Joe


Thank you Sir, I know your wishing is genuine, and wishing, alike bowing, is bowing back, which is beyond explanation or imagination. I love it when there's no prattle about the way.
Differences are never in opposition.
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6703
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Imagination

Postby [james] on Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:49 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:p.p.p.s. Yet, you otherwise try to represent that you hold the Sixth Patriarch's view! :tongueincheek:


Don't be daft Desert Joe.

It's ironic that Hui Neng's dried and dusty corpse is now encased in lacquer and on display for the veneration of true believers.
User avatar
[james]
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 am

Re: Imagination

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:31 pm

hi, James, and a good morning,

[james] wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:p.p.p.s. Yet, you otherwise try to represent that you hold the Sixth Patriarch's view! :tongueincheek:

Don't be daft Desert Joe.

Not at all. I think my harangue was a perfectly sane and logical one. ;)

It's ironic that Hui Neng's dried and dusty corpse is now encased in lacquer and on display for the veneration of true believers.

(A Protestant-tinged attitude, not a Catholic one, I'll guess).

Dusty? I think you're the one who had something to say about moving the dust around and reprocessing it, as practice. I'm pretty sure that the assigned temple-cleaners are fastidious about their duties when it comes to floors, altar, and relics: "Zen"-work is "cleaning".

Don't throw the baby back in with the bathwater after the bath. No one knows the attitude of practitioners at Hui Neng's temple toward the relic unless you've practiced there. I'm one who doesn't know. I see no irony, and I think that whatever supports a person's practice and cultivation, in whatever respect and to whatever degree, is possibly healthy. And very likely wisely provided, and compassionately provided. Icing-on-the-cake, maybe?, but done, too, for good psychological reasons (which can hold sway at almost all stages of practice, I'd say. It may be that the temple is a totality, and the relic is a facet).

But the major point I wished to bring out was/is that awakening is indeed an awakening, and in the Ch'an and Zen school it is recognized characteristically to be sudden. It seemed that you were attempting to minimize, paper-over, refute, or at least call into question this fact, and I could see no reason to have any of that. Again, the lit. is replete with accounts of this, and if one has had a personal experience of this in practice, you'd know what these accounts are talking about, and where these accounts of sudden awakening are coming from.

I could agree that's it's not helpful to keep much attention on this as one practices, but it's just unrealistic to deny its reality, arising from practice.

To remain on topic (or to veer back to it) I'll say that it's not helpful to imagine what and how awakening may be, if one has not experienced it, and that it's best to just keep on practicing. And, if one has experienced it, then imagination is not useful either, and again it's best to keep on practicing. In my opinion, that's what to emphasize.

And if one should see the embalmed and encased Hui Neng at his temple, no problem. Exemplary posture.

--Joe

p.s. Meido Roshi had some things to say here about the "meat bodies", in a ZFI thread. Let's see, there was another name for them. "Meat" seems rather gross, as he pointed out to me, but it's one common translation. I'll scratch around and provide a reference later.

EDIT: The preferable word is "flesh bodies". Meido Roshi's thread on "mummification" lives here at this ZFI address: viewtopic.php?f=131&t=11029&p=170657&hilit=meat+bodies#p170629
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6493
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Imagination

Postby partofit22 on Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:00 am

fukasetsu wrote:I didn't know sarcasm was a music style


Punk / Hardcore is, I think- Sort of?
partofit22
 
Posts: 4656
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:36 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Zen Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 4 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 4 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests