Welcome admin !

It is currently Fri May 26, 2017 11:48 pm
Pathway:  Board index Zen Discussion Forum Zen Practice & Philosophy Zen Buddhism

Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Discussions of Zen Buddhism in all shapes and sizes.

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:02 pm

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:What are you trying to remember Joe?

Clue me in, pls. Where does that question come from?

I remembered the names of some two dozen formal practices (and of course there are others).

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:03 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Tee-hee. Let's not forget the import, usefulness, and naturalness of humor, in our Zen Buddhist practice, formal and otherwise.

--Joe


You never forgot it.... so what's to remember

the poem was not meant for humor

linda
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3617
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:12 pm

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:You never forgot it.... so what's to remember

the poem was not meant for humor

Certainly not the poem, no.

I bring up humor in the context of the OP, Linda. I feel it's yet another potential or actual practice, or tendency that can be considered in and among Zen Buddhist practitioners. Yes!, but we certainly know this here, and have not forgotten it. I'm just being explicit about it, in "naming" practices, or "reciting their lovely names", trying not to leave it "out". Though I've left out a lot. Meido has named some other practices, for example.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby chankin1937 on Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:24 am

Joe wrote: I bring up humor in the context of the OP, Linda. I feel it's yet another potential or actual practice, or tendency that can be considered in and among Zen Buddhist practitioners. Yes!, but we certainly know this here, and have not forgotten it. I'm just being explicit about it, in "naming" practices, or "reciting their lovely names", trying not to leave it "out". Though I've left out a lot. Meido has named some other practices, for example.


Hello Joe,
All mystical practices have the same outcome – profound peace-of-mind – the common human goal.
I watched a video on meditation in the Bhagavad-Gita and the first 24 minutes of it gave effective meditation instructions. No particular method has the market cornered. They all work, just so long as they recommend abstaining from CMA while remaining alert and passively aware.

I selected Zen because it has the clearest message, free of the encumbrances of complicated beliefs and practices. You seem hell-bent on reintroducing those very things true Zen got rid of.

Gutei Chikan (Chin-hua Chu-chih) was a 9th Century Chinese master known for his almost exclusive technique of raising a single finger in response to questions about Zen

What was he indicating? He was saying, loud and clear, you don’t get results by thinking. He simply warned against using CMA in meditation. His was the most economical way - the perfect way! That is the whole of Zen.
We are all aware. We all have the potential of isolating that awareness from it functions – CMA – in meditation. You may run into problems along the way but ultimately you must solve them yourself. Understanding exactly what you are trying to do (and why) will help enormously. No amount of external practice is going to solve introspective problems.
Good luck in your quest.
Colin
chankin1937
 

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:All mystical practices have the same outcome – profound peace-of-mind – the common human goal.

Well, you know that we disagree about that. This is where I note that you have gone wrong, and been wrong earliest-on, immediately at Step-One of your manifesto's development (and have stewed and steeped without correction for all these many years due to lack of contact with genuine, actual practitioners). Thus, the rest of its intentions and presumptions are likewise ill-formed, errant, and polluted by that initial simple simplistic stumble.

There is no "common human goal". That is your bugboo. It's presumptuous, and untrue. It may be "common" in the sense of "He's SO common", or "She's SO common". But it is not widespread or generalizable. If you say it is, then let's see the figures on your worldwide survey on this point. It's an assumption of your own, instead. And it does not generalize.

Now, particularly among those who adopt "mystical" practice in life, the "goal", or motivation, rather, is much broader and much more investigative. Some may settle for what you mention that you settle for, but they or those are ones who are "easily-amused". A teacher of any mystical (direct-experiential) path will always tell such a student, or any student, to "push on", and leave mere satiety with this shore for "the other shore".

Mystical paths aim for a death, and a rebirth. Not a satisfaction. The goal is a new being -- not the same old one but with a smile added. A new being, who has found his / her true, original-nature, and who practices, onwards, afterwards, to maintain and share that reality.

That is the program of Zen Buddhist practice, for example. And is the reason for the existence and transmission of the practices named in the OP, and by others in the thread who have added some.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby chankin1937 on Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:06 am

chankin1937 wrote:All mystical practices have the same outcome – profound peace-of-mind – the common human goal.


Joe wrote: Well, you know that we disagree about that. This is where I note that you have gone wrong, and been wrong earliest-on, immediately at Step-One of your manifesto's development (and have stewed and steeped without correction for all these many years due to lack of contact with genuine, actual practitioners). Thus, the rest of its intentions and presumptions are likewise ill-formed, errant, and polluted by that initial simple simplistic stumble.


You’re overlooking one fact, Joe. I didn’t create an explanation in order to get something. I found an explanation of what I had already had.

There is no "common human goal".


When I have problems to solve or appetites to satisfy I must think hard (use CMA) to resolve the situation. Until I do so I will have no peace-of-mind – I will be stressed - I will not be happy. It’s so glaringly obvious that the common human goal is that peace-of-mind – happiness. It’s written into the structure of the language!

Now, particularly among those who adopt "mystical" practice in life, the "goal", or motivation, rather, is much broader and much more investigative. Some may settle for what you mention that you settle for, but they or those are ones who are "easily-amused". A teacher of any mystical (direct-experiential) path will always tell such a student, or any student, to "push on", and leave mere satiety with this shore for "the other shore".


Many Zen Masters insist that the end product of successful meditation is bliss.
Zazen gives us access to bliss in our daily lives. If you “push on,” aiming for some imaginary rebirth, dukkha (stress induced by false appetites) destroys what equanimity you have gained.

Mystical paths aim for a death, and a rebirth.


How will you feel when you are reborn, Joe? Happy? Content? At peace? Or will you wade back into the morass of “myriad practices” to become engulfed in more dukkha?.
Colin
chankin1937
 

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:03 pm

C.,

Explanations satisfy some itch in some people, those bent on a cognitive, samsaric need for persuasion as to some matter.

You won't find explanation to be important in genuine Zen Buddhist practice. The reason is that the mind bent on samsara is to be allowed to die, to fall away. That is why your manifesto is irrelevant, and is instead pursuant to an outer-path. Apples and oranges, vis-a-vis Zen Buddhist practice and concerns.

One who leans on an explanation all the time is doing ...just that.

Awakening or liberation do not come of "explanation". Relentless appetite for and reliance on explanation ensures continuing attachment to samsaric-states, preventing the opening toward awakening.

The Buddha never "explained". Yet, what we have from him came of a richness of Wisdom and Compassion. This speaks volumes.

"Explanation" is not conducive to transformation, in the way Zen Buddhists work. And psychological-adjustment is not liberation.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:53 am

Hi, everyone,

I've mentioned how, in my experience and seeing, the many practices and Dharma Gates we have in Zen Buddhist practice can be synergistic, and catalytic, upon one another. Indeed, this is why they exist (as practices), and why they persist (as Zen Buddhist practices, transmitted down the centuries).

Zen Buddhist practice and training is not easy, and is not a matter of appreciating "bliss", nor other conditioned states.

On these points, I quote below the words of a modern Zen Buddhist master, Albert Low, Roshi, of Montreal Zen Centre, Canada, a Dharma heir of the late Philip Kapleau Roshi, of Rochester (New York) Zen Center. There, apparently, participation in communal Zen Buddhist training and practice activities at his place is available to those who have undertaken to commit to Zen Buddhist practice in a sensible and rather prescribed way.

This reminds me of the "admissions-criteria" tests, at Zen Buddhist monasteries, in the old-country (countries), where postulants had to prove (or indeed discover) their dedication to the aims and value of Zen Practice before they were even allowed indoors, and even then, after three days outdoors, once inside, had to sit the equivalent of a 5-day sesshin, or so, in a separate room together, to further demonstrate their readiness for the rigors of Zen Buddhist practice, and their un-brittle resilience and tenacity.

Albert Low Roshi writes, in his book, HAKUIN ON KENSHO -- THE FOUR WAYS OF KNOWING (2006; Shambhala), that:

"At the Montreal Zen Centre, before a member is accepted
as a student, he or she must answer three questions. First, do
I really want to see into my true nature, or I am simply 'practicing
Zen
', wanting to find peace and comfort or whatever? Second, am
I prepared to do the work that is necessary, and to go on doing it
until I have penetrated to the root? Finally, do I have faith in the
teacher, and will I be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt
when necessary? If the student can answer 'yes' to all three, then
he or she is accepted as a student. In this way, a commitment is
made; it is a commitment not to the Zen center, not to Zen, nor to the
teacher -- but to oneself. A true commitment can only be made if
one can generate the great faith, the great doubt, and the great
perseverance necessary to sustain the practice of Zen."

--------------------------------------


I'll add that, once the said commitment is solid, the practices are there to allow one to begin, and continue. Of course, one must learn the practices correctly, and apply them correctly. This, indeed, suggests and recommends practicing with teacher and sangha. And, of course, practicing at home and in daily life.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby chankin1937 on Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:01 pm

Joe wrote: "Explanation" is not conducive to transformation, in the way Zen Buddhists work.


Hello Joe,
But it may encourage more people to regain the ability to be happy. Just so long as they don’t get bogged down in the irrelevant practices you recommend.

And psychological-adjustment is not liberation.


I’m glad you brought that up again.
What greater “psychological adjustment” could be proposed than your imaginary “awakening”?
What I recommend is a reconnection with something humanity has lost contact with – bliss - happiness – profound peace of mind. Its something we are born with but which is quickly lost as we become embroiled in lives vicissitudes and the engagement with meaningless rituals.
Colin
chankin1937
 

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby chankin1937 on Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:52 pm

Joe wrote: Zen Buddhist practice and training is not easy, and is not a matter of appreciating "bliss", nor other conditioned states.


Hello Joe,
Huang-po says:
"The Buddha-essence is.....illuminating, peaceful and productive of bliss."
Nagarjuna said: "Bliss consists in the cessation of all thought."
From the Mahaparinirvana Sutra;
(In meditatation) “All formations are impermanent, this is the law of appearing and disappearing, when both appearing and disappearing, "disappear" Then the stillness is bliss.

Just three quotes by experts who directly contradict you.

Joe wrote: Albert Low Roshi writes, in his book, HAKUIN ON KENSHO -- THE FOUR WAYS OF KNOWING (2006; Shambhala), that:

"At the Montreal Zen Centre, before a member is accepted as a student, he or she must answer three questions. First, do I really want to see into my true nature, or I am simply 'practicing Zen', wanting to find peace and comfort or whatever?"


He is making the same mistake as you.

Second, am I prepared to do the work that is necessary, and to go on doing it until I have penetrated to the root? Finally, do I have faith in the teacher, and will I be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt when necessary?

Does that mean we are to take what he says on faith no matter how it conflicts with common sense or morality? There must be plenty of doubts!

If the student can answer 'yes' to all three, then
he or she is accepted as a student. In this way, a commitment is
made; it is a commitment not to the Zen center, not to Zen, nor to the
teacher -- but to oneself. A true commitment can only be made if
one can generate the great faith, the great doubt, and the great
perseverance necessary to sustain the practice of Zen."


Better to commit to reconnecting with the ability to be happy.

Joe wrote: I'll add that, once the said commitment is solid, the practices are there to allow one to begin, and continue. Of course, one must learn the practices correctly, and apply them correctly. This, indeed, suggests and recommends practicing with teacher and sangha. And, of course, practicing at home and in daily life.


All you need to do is confine CMA to its proper role – that of solving our problems and satisfying our appetites. And in meditation – practice abstaining from it altogether.
Involving yourself in complicated practices and rituals is quite obviously going to add to the burden of obsessive thought. The objective is to rid ourselves of the random and habitual thinking that severely impairs our ability to feel happy.

Gautama Buddha is reported to have said “Nirvana is the extinction of dukkha”.
Nirvana is profound peace-of-mind – happiness.
Dukkha is obsessive thinking – random and habitual thought.
That is Zen in its entirety.
Commit to benefiting from understanding that, both theoretically and practically..
Colin
chankin1937
 

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Chrisd on Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:02 pm

chankin1937 wrote:
Joe wrote: "Explanation" is not conducive to transformation, in the way Zen Buddhists work.


Hello Joe,
But it may encourage more people to regain the ability to be happy. Just so long as they don’t get bogged down in the irrelevant practices you recommend.

And psychological-adjustment is not liberation.


I’m glad you brought that up again.
What greater “psychological adjustment” could be proposed than your imaginary “awakening”?
What I recommend is a reconnection with something humanity has lost contact with – bliss - happiness – profound peace of mind. Its something we are born with but which is quickly lost as we become embroiled in lives vicissitudes and the engagement with meaningless rituals.
Colin


Rituals are not meaningless.
People perform them for various benefits.

Profound peace of mind can be the result of these ;)
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:37 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:
Joe wrote: "Explanation" is not conducive to transformation, in the way Zen Buddhists work.

But it may encourage more people to regain the ability to be happy. Just so long as they don’t get bogged down in the irrelevant practices you recommend.

You show over and over again that the "happiness" you espouse is a satisfaction within samsara, where a small-"self" reigns unremittingly.

That is not Buddhadharma's program. It's instead a self-help program, ...where the "self", in self-help again, is a fiction, not yet seen-through as such, and put on a throne as supreme. Bah! Bad taste in the mouth. New Age stuff, with a long history of Materialism and Naive Realism behind it. You're following on in a sordid tradition of aggrandizement of the small and fictitious self, and control by said self. You're not alone in that, yet you want to popularize it to a larger public, under a false heading!

Better, instead, for those who are interested in genuine Zen Buddhist practice and its program of awakening and realization, to see a teacher and sangha, and, through correct practice, discover the blazes on the trail-head, and to follow those, along the trail (Path), not any sort of New Age paperback-writer diverting pulpage.

Well... good morning, and good morning All.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:11 pm

Thanks, Chris.

Chrisd wrote:Rituals are not meaningless.
People perform them for various benefits.

Profound peace of mind can be the result of these ;)

I think that's right. I see the practices, too, as a multi-course meal, or a balanced-diet. With synergy and catalysis among the elements, minerals, and vitamins. We don't have here a starvation-diet of empty calories! (although, ultimately... no, never mind about what's "empty"). :lol2:

Not all the practices I have listed-out are rituals, of course. In fact, I think I list none that are rituals. Even the Jukai ceremony is not a ritual, as I see it: it is a person stating that he or she is entering the community of Buddhist practitioners, while the community is there to welcome and show support to the newcomer. It's like a friend coming home and being greeted by family and friends. I feel the sense more of celebration and welcoming, than ritual.

There are elements of ritual in practices such as Dokusan, where we have some bowing performed before the teacher. But -- not giving too much away, I hope -- this is partially a means by which the teacher may see or sense the state of the student, and is also a way for the student to crisply enter and leave the room. In daily life, we have the handshake, for example. Is that "ritual"? I would say, "Yes!". Does it serve a function? I would say, "Definitely".

Hmm, Dalai Lama sez, "Buddhadharma spreads from one warm hand to another." Not bad... . ;)

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Chrisd on Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:26 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:There are elements of ritual in practices such as Dokusan, where we have some bowing performed before the teacher. But -- not giving too much away, I hope -- this is partially a means by which the teacher may see or sense the state of the student, and is also a way for the student to crisply enter and leave the room. In daily life, we have the handshake, for example. Is that "ritual"? I would say, "Yes!". Does it serve a function? I would say, "Definitely".


I don't think you have to be scared of giving things away, you don't enter the dokusan room with that attitude either, right?

I think we should endeavour to make the world into our dokusan room.
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:08 pm

Chris,

Chrisd wrote:I don't think you have to be scared of giving things away, you don't enter the dokusan room with that attitude either, right?

I think we should endeavour to make the world into our dokusan room.

The risk as I see it is "giving too much away" to folks who have not practiced, yet. The best thing is to discover the reasons for things on one's own, I'd say. Anyway, there's an injunction against "speaking too plainly". That's why, in particular, there is not a lot of information in print, etc., on the details of Zen Buddhist practice (practices).

But I see, anyway, that your heart is the heart of a Bodhisattva (I mean, I think I've known this for several YEARS... ). :lol2:

The world may be our dokusan room, but, I tell you, in THAT case, YOU'D better be the teacher! Then, we could trust you not to leak too much juicy stuff. Caution!

And, Hail!, all true teachers.

--Joe

ps (as a person practices formally more and more, ...more and more, ...more and more and MORE, one comes to see the reasons for biting one's tongue more often than not (ah... : an idiomatic euphemism meaning "keeping quiet"). I confess I walk the line, and often flub-dub over the wrong side of it. Apologies, apologies, All Beings! Not that I "know" anything about Buddhism. No; it's "practice" I'm talking about. But, "Loose Lips Sink Ships").

:Namaste:

LLMSS.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Chrisd on Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:52 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Chris,
ps (as a person practices formally more and more, ...more and more, ...more and more and MORE, one comes to see the reasons for biting one's tongue more often than not (ah... : an idiomatic euphemism meaning "keeping quiet"). I confess I walk the line, and often flub-dub over the wrong side of it. Apologies, apologies, All Beings! Not that I "know" anything about Buddhism. No; it's "practice" I'm talking about. But, "Loose Lips Sink Ships").


Well isn't the reason people restrain stuff like that is that they don't trust people can handle it? What is the basis of this distrust?
Let people make up their own minds of what is real and what isn't, you can just say it as it is for you. See how that makes you an ordinary person? :lol2:

I can't imagine there being anything to spill. Even for fully enlightened ones as I understand it the unfolding that happens for them in the realm of experience is endless. The finishing, nirvana is the no longer being hung up in the experience. That doesn't mean experience stops.

Practice should open you, not give you more stuff to hide.
Chrisd
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:04 am

Dear Chris,

Chrisd wrote:Well isn't the reason people restrain stuff like that is that they don't trust people can handle it? What is the basis of this distrust?
Let people make up their own minds of what is real and what isn't, you can just say it as it is for you. See how that makes you an ordinary person?

I'll put it to you plain and simple. It's not a matter of stipulating or suggesting what is real, or unreal. It's like, instead, well, for example, that I will not tell you the details of a MOVIE that you have not seen yet. See the movie yourself!, "from scratch", and experience it as it's intended to be.

I wouldn't like to be "a spoiler".

And in spiritual practice, it's worse than having a movie "ruined" for you. It could be a matter of awakening, or not awakening. I'm sure that Teachers, too, are very concerned and maybe circumspect, in how they teach, what they say, etc., in order to give students wide open opportunities in Zen Buddhist practice, and not to constrain them. My hat's off to them!

This is serious!

The Buddha, too, never talked or taught about Metaphysics, but only about practice, and only about actions.

Likewise, I too shall try to 'behave'.

Chris, True Wisdom and True Compassion determine (the extent or nature of) what one shares, in particular circles. It's only natural. So it's been, always.

Does this (compassionate reticence to describe, report, or explain things) "explain" some things? (it should). :tongueincheek:

Don't answer right away. "Sleep on it", a few days (er-r, nights, unless you're an Astronomer).

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6253
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:48 am

oh, this is upside down.... in the territory of zen, it is not possible for loose lips to sink ships... what is the sound of loose lips. :lol2:

Seriously, it seems to me that the so-called injunction, if there is one, has nothing to do with the peril and give-away for beginners. Yes, I know the cautions. Each person hears according to their view, so if we were to speak the ultimate, it may be heard, or not. It's not for us to rain on someone else's parade by saying too much.... each rain drop falls exactly in the right place.... it is none of my business what someone is ready to hear. Yet, in the living dharma, we respond to each person accordingly. I personally don't think it serves to talk about beginners, as I have said before. I can't recreate the history of what I said. It was for that moment. At some point it seems we can all agree that there is an ineffable quality which can't be spoken of. None the less, we hear it spoken in sutras, poetry, koans and teishos... so what is the teaching of the injunction?

Personally, I think it is up to both teachers and students to speak the dharma as they live it. From that perspective, the whole world is dokusan or as we called it where I come from.... "work in the room"... translate that to "work in the world". We run the possibility of tripping and looking foolish... no worries tho if we keep an open heart and a sense of humor. Seems to me, that this is the ultimate ethics statement.... the mistakes of the past scandals would not happen if we all live our dharma naturally without concern for hierarchical structure and policies.

So, why would we keep silent? Here are a few thoughts off the top, I'm sure there are more. First, as part of practice, we can become aware of what lives in us and what is imitation and why we might imitate as a way of comparing and competing with others. Ego's work, teachers and fellows can help.

Seems to me that a more important consideration is learning when it is appropriate to share our practice and our dharma ... and when it is wise to keep silent. This has nothing to do with others and "if they are ready". It is wise to keep silent when we understand that we are in the realm of the unknown and that to say anything would be like saying nothing at all. This is a tender time when we need to ride the waves and hold the meditation. To do otherwise would contort the process unnecessarily and dissipate the energy.
linda
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3617
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby chankin1937 on Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:36 pm

Chrisd wrote,
Rituals are not meaningless.
People perform them for various benefits .Profound peace of mind can be the result of these


Hello Chrisd,
I’m glad to hear that! I was convinced they were a total waste of time - as Huang Po said.
But don’t you think just living your life can be enough? Confining CMA to its proper role is hard enough without indulging in a lot of extra activities.
I suppose that belonging to a club can keep your nose to the Zen grindstone. :)
Enjoy your peace-of-mind because that is the great treasure of Zen and that is what the meditator awakens to. There is nothing else – that is more than enough.
Colin
chankin1937
 

Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby chankin1937 on Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:18 pm

Joe wrote:
You show over and over again that the "happiness" you espouse is a satisfaction within samsara, where a small-"self" reigns unremittingly.


Hello Joe,
Then why does Huang Po tell us that, "The Buddha-essence is.....illuminating, peaceful and productive of bliss."
And why does Nagarjuna say: "Bliss consists in the cessation of all thought."
And why is it written in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra;
(In meditatation) “All formations are impermanent, this is the law of appearing and disappearing, when both appearing and disappearing, "disappear" Then the stillness is bliss.”

That is not Buddhadharma's program. It's instead a self-help program, ...where the "self", in self-help again, is a fiction, not yet seen-through as such, and put on a throne as supreme. Bah! Bad taste in the mouth. New Age stuff, with a long history of Materialism and Naive Realism behind it.


New age? When were the above quotes written?

We lose ideas about the self in meditation because they are ideas not because they relate specifically to the self. Who experiences your “blazes on the trail head” if there is no “self” to savour them? You are merely perpetuating a modern myth. Everyone knows there is a self. It is that part of us which is aware of the world we live in.

Better, instead, for those who are interested in genuine Zen Buddhist practice and its program of awakening and realization, to see a teacher and sangha, and, through correct practice, discover the blazes on the trail-head, and to follow those, along the trail (Path), not any sort of New Age paperback-writer diverting pulpage.


If your writings are representative of the quality available in modern day sanghas - writings that consistently contradict what the Zen Masters have passed down to us - better to stay away.
Colin
chankin1937
 

PreviousNext

Return to Zen Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests

cron
 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests