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Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby chankin1937 on Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:28 am

desert_woodworker
Joe wrote: It's an attempt, through logic, to demonstrate to anyone paying attention that someone who has not practiced, and who conveniently dismisses practices, plural, with no knowledge of them and no participation in them -- which practices are held to be important to the thorough program of Zen Buddhist training, being transmitted preciously down the centuries -- is no authority on their value, nor can stand to try to serve as a competent critic as to their "meaningfulness".
The insult is the ignorant critic's dismissal of practices, and claim of "meaningless[ness]". There I agree.
Of course, anyone may dismiss anything for oneself. Doing so makes one no less ignorant, though, nor any less incompetent as a presumptive, "critic", slandering what you ignorantly dismiss. Pshaww-w... .


Hello Joe,
The “presumptive critic slandering what you ignorantly dismiss” is Huang po!!!!!

Do you actually read any of these posts? :lol2:

(Was Joe's post insulting?)

Colin
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:59 pm

T-g,

Thus-gone wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:I placed my post well.

There are other traditions of Buddhadharma. They, and outer-paths, are housed and treated elsewhere. I hope that is clear.

No, you just write as if other Buddhist practice traditions did not exist.

I don't think you mean "No".

--Joe
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:05 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:The “presumptive critic slandering what you ignorantly dismiss” is Huang po!!!!!

Mister Master Huangbo was a monastic, and practiced and taught all the practices I list from memory at the start of this thread, and probably more! Such is the Zen Buddhist way.

As I evidence, ours is a rich tradition, not impoverished.

Please face facts, not the mirror.

tnx!,

--Joe
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby anka on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:30 pm

Zen does not need to be defended. It is what we make it.
Layman zen is different from monastic zen.
I'm sure our current zen is different from bodhidharma zen in someway.
The only thing for certain is that everything changes.

:Namaste:
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:48 pm

A.,

anka wrote:The only thing for certain is that everything changes.

It's right. A Zen Buddhist teacher can and will Wisely and Compassionately teach skilfully in ways that are expedient.

The many Practices exist in order to build to the necessary sudden landslide to slough-off the self, and be awakened by the 10000 Things.

The 10000 Things, and the many Practices, exist in order to keep us awake.

This is my view of our practice, generalized enough for most Zen Buddhist lines, I'd say.

--Joe
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:50 pm

Landslide? Thok!
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:54 pm

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:Landslide? Thok!

Yowza!

Exposing the underlayment.

:Namaste:

--Joe
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:10 pm

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:Thok!

Seen the space-facing face of your namesake Tropical Storm as the sun was still rising on the full breadth of it, this morning? (gosh-a-roonie!).

Solidly cloudy here. "Every day is a good day." (to practice / wake up).

:)

--Joe

Trop_Storm_Linda_10sep_2015.jpg
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby anka on Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:25 pm

Joe,

Thank you.

I do understand your responses to chankin come from compassion but it is easy to read it otherwise.

Enjoy the tropical storm. Mother natures own vortex.
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:14 pm

A.,

anka wrote:Thank you. I do understand your responses to chankin come from compassion but it is easy to read it otherwise.

Thank you for the very welcome and kind word. Right!, don't be "easy" on yourself when reading ("all you readers", here). ;)

(Compassion, anyway, is not always "sweetness and light").

Enjoy the tropical storm. Mother natures own vortex.

Raining ever so lightly now, but steadily (the kind of rain that might "last", due to this visiting Maritime influence. A rare day in the desert... ).

"Thanks, Linda"!

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby chankin1937 on Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:54 am

chankin1937 wrote:The “presumptive critic slandering what you ignorantly dismiss” is Huang po!!!!!


Joe wrote: Mister Master Huangbo was a monastic, and practiced and taught all the practices I list from memory at the start of this thread, and probably more! Such is the Zen Buddhist way.


Hello Joe,
If that were true why would he write this?

“As to performing the six paramitas and vast numbers of similar practices, or gaining merits as countless as the sands of the Ganges, since you are fundamentally complete in every respect, you should not try to supplement that perfection by such meaningless practices. ……. if you are attached to forms, practices and meritorious performances, your way of thinking is false and quite incompatible with the Way.”

Never mind the mirror – face the facts. Do you get that, Joe? Forms, practices and meritorious performances are incompatible with the way.

It is possible to go to the Sangha with your friends and just meditate. It might help you. Don't waste your time on the obstructions. Get down to the nitty gritty. Remember Sakyamni said "Nirvana is the extinction of desire". He didn't add a list of extraneous activities which, incidentally, all add up to more "desire" however you interpret it.

Perhaps it would benefit everyone to get back to basics.

Colin
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Mason on Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:34 pm

chankin1937 wrote:
chankin1937 wrote:The “presumptive critic slandering what you ignorantly dismiss” is Huang po!!!!!


Joe wrote: Mister Master Huangbo was a monastic, and practiced and taught all the practices I list from memory at the start of this thread, and probably more! Such is the Zen Buddhist way.


Hello Joe,
If that were true why would he write this?

“As to performing the six paramitas and vast numbers of similar practices, or gaining merits as countless as the sands of the Ganges, since you are fundamentally complete in every respect, you should not try to supplement that perfection by such meaningless practices. ……. if you are attached to forms, practices and meritorious performances, your way of thinking is false and quite incompatible with the Way.”

Never mind the mirror – face the facts. Do you get that, Joe? Forms, practices and meritorious performances are incompatible with the way.

It is possible to go to the Sangha with your friends and just meditate. It might help you. Don't waste your time on the obstructions. Get down to the nitty gritty. Remember Sakyamni said "Nirvana is the extinction of desire". He didn't add a list of extraneous activities which, incidentally, all add up to more "desire" however you interpret it.

Perhaps it would benefit everyone to get back to basics.

Colin


Huang Po says "if you are attached to forms, practices and meritorious performances...". Of course meditation is one such form of practice and it is just as useless a "supplement" as anything else. What is important is kensho (seeing the nature); practices are only fruitful insofar as they eventuate this awakening. In our nature we are complete, so rather than trying to augment ourselves through meditation and other spiritual practices, we should just see into our own nature and be liberated instantaneously. The catch? Meditation and other spiritual practices are usually necessary in order for kensho to occur.

Anyone who thinks that Huang Po did not advocate severe practice has not spent much time with the records.
Interconnectedness: it's like two sides of the same coin, except each side is everything in the universe - including the coin.
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Michaeljc on Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:39 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:A.,

anka wrote:Thank you. I do understand your responses to chankin come from compassion but it is easy to read it otherwise.

Thank you for the very welcome and kind word. Right!, don't be "easy" on yourself when reading ("all you readers", here). ;)

(Compassion, anyway, is not always "sweetness and light").

Enjoy the tropical storm. Mother natures own vortex.

Raining ever so lightly now, but steadily (the kind of rain that might "last", due to this visiting Maritime influence. A rare day in the desert... ).

"Thanks, Linda"!

:Namaste:,

--Joe


Joe - the 6 month prediction is a lot more of this weather event. For Sth California: average rainfall + 50% :) I am on the west of a range of mountains in the sea. I expect enhanced rain too. Over the hill in the east will be drought

The reason? El Nino
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:06 pm

Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:Perhaps it would benefit everyone to get back to basics.

Ah, so you DO recognize "basics", plural.

Welcome.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:23 pm

Michael,

Michaeljc wrote:The reason? El Nino

Right, it seems to be building, and in accord with the predictions. Monitoring and the data keep getting better with each El Nino oscillation.

"Best Practices" are improving. Speaking of practices! ;)

--Joe

ps yes, the "rain-shadow" effect you mention from the mountain range is important here too in our Northwestern states, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho (making-for, among other things, some interesting vinifera terroir). There are quite desert-like (arid) lands, on the eastern (downwind) slopes of the mountains there, even though these territories are not in the desertic range of latitudes on earth, where cold, dry air from the polar regions drops to earth in the Hadley Cell circulation (centered about +/- 30 deg in Latitude, as you know). I've been fascinated by orographic-weather for years, and did a good part of the start of my work in Arizona in seeking suitable mountains (and finding a great one!) here for the current new generation of very large ground-based astronomical telescopes. "Site-testing" that work is called, in the lingo. We employed a baker's dozen of methods to settle on the winning candidate, "Mount Graham", and on the best location upon that winning mountain. The Pope put the Vatican Observatory telescope there, and we have a sub-millimeter-wave radio telescope there in collaboration with Germany, and our Large Binocular Telescope was dedicated there and has been doing science (2 mirrors each of 8.4 meters diameter -- 2 x 290 inches). -J.
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:20 am

And, oh yes, Colin,

chankin1937 wrote:Never mind the mirror – face the facts. Do you get that, Joe? Forms, practices and meritorious performances are incompatible with the way.

Never, in all my born-days as a hot-air balloonist aviator, have I heard such unmitigated, non-vegetarian, baloney.

Salami,

--Giuseppe Luigi Federico M.

ps I'm sure that, in a future, or past- life, we'll play patty-cake, or will square-dance. But why wait? It's your move. Liverwurst! :lol2:
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:55 am

In the field today, tho I"ve known of this long before and always loved it ...from my dharma brother, it seems forever....

~~~ Song of the Grass-Roof Hermitage ~~~

Shitou Xiqian ( Sekito Kisen) 700-790 AD

I've built a grass hut where there's nothing of value.
After eating, I relax and enjoy a nap.
When it was completed, fresh weeds appeared.
Now it's been lived in –– covered by weeds.

The person in the hut lives here calmly,
Not stuck to inside, outside, or in between.
Places worldly people live, he doesn't live.
Realms worldly people love, he doesn't love.

Though the hut is small, it includes the entire world.
In ten square feet, an old man illumines forms and their nature.
A Great Vehicle bodhisattva trusts without doubt.
The middling or lowly can't help wondering;
Will this hut perish or not?

Perishable or not, the original master is present,
Not dwelling south or north, east or west.
Firmly based on steadiness, it can't be surpassed.
A shining window below the green pines --
Jade palaces or vermilion towers can't compare with it.

Just sitting with head covered, all things are at rest.
Thus, this mountain monk doesn't understand at all.
Living here he no longer works to get free.
Who would proudly arrange seats, trying to entice guests?

Turn around the light to shine within, then just return.
The vast inconceivable source can't be faced or turned away from.
Meet the ancestral teachers, be familiar with their instruction,
Bind grasses to build a hut, and don't give up.

Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely.
Open your hands and walk, innocent.
Thousands of words, myriad interpretations,
Are only to free you from obstructions.
If you want to know the undying person in the hut,
Don't separate from this skin bag here and now.
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:02 am

This particular poem is from a dharma brother down the street who never tires of reading it in his talks... but I recall a day when material like this was common-place on ZFI ... I have quite a collection which I copy/pasted back in the day.... and I can always depend on Gregory for new material. it gives one pause. :Namaste:

also, in the field today, 1,000 years later:
Make your upper garments into a monk’s robe
Make your chair your sitting cushion;
Make the mountains, rivers and great earth the sitting platform;
Make the whole universe your own personal meditation cave.
This is the true practice of the sages of the past and of today.

Hakuin Zenji (1748)
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:48 am

Tee-hee. Let's not forget the import, usefulness, and naturalness of humor, in our Zen Buddhist practice, formal and otherwise.

Professor Edward Conze said, by the way, in all seriousness, that...

" 'Zen' is Buddhism with jokes".

NOT that there are "authorities" about these things, ...but he sure struck a natural funny-bone in me, there! ;)

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: Baker's Do-zen of Zen Buddhist Practices

Postby Linda Anderson on Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:37 am

What are you trying to remember Joe?
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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