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You mean without a formal teacher?

A place to share and discuss the practice of Zen Buddhism without teachers. Debates about whether practicing without teachers is possible or desirable are not appropriate here, nor are criticisms of Zen Buddhist practice with teachers.
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A place to share and discuss the practice of Zen Buddhism without teachers. Debates about whether practising without teachers is possible or desirable are not appropriate here, nor are criticisms of Zen Buddhist practice with teachers.

You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby Quiet Heart on Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:22 am

:) I do have Zen teachers, they come to me many times a week.
They don't have to be flesh and blood humans, do they?
Just last week a young boy, maybe 2 years old and his mother were playing a game.
A life lesson from two teachers if you could just see it as I did.
In Quietness is the beginning of all Things
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby TTT on Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:34 am

But this is not a teacher. This is Life giving you a lesson.

:Namaste:
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:56 pm

Quiet Heart wrote:A life lesson from two teachers if you could just see it as I did.


Sure, I get that daily, those spontaneous moments of observation/insight.
But that doesn't mean a flesh and blood one should be excluded,
but I agree, everything/everyone is the teacher. :)
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby Nothing on Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:29 pm

Quiet Heart wrote::) I do have Zen teachers, they come to me many times a week.
They don't have to be flesh and blood humans, do they?
Just last week a young boy, maybe 2 years old and his mother were playing a game.
A life lesson from two teachers if you could just see it as I did.


Hi QuietHeart

Although I agree that siting zazen is not and should not be the only practice, it is very important practice especially in the beginning, and we need a actual zen teacher to show us how to do it correctly so we can apply the right effort in order to build a strong foundation. And until the practice become effortless a teacher is very much needed and can be of great help because there are many obstacles, problems that can arise during our practice and we can get stuck. This is not say that when the practice become effortless a teacher is not needed.

And yes, everyone, anything can be a teacher, but only that is not enough, we need strong foundation first.

Boddhidharma said that only one in million awakes without a help of a teacher. If you are convinced that you are the one, then you d not need a zen teacher. ;)


Victor :Namaste:
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:46 pm

N.,

Nothing wrote:If you are convinced that you are the one, then you d not need a zen teacher. ;)

Pardon, this is a bit of a "cheap-shot" of a reply from me, ...but I would say that the person who is convinced that he or she is the one who does not need a teacher is the one who most needs the teacher.

I cannot prove that, but I feel that the odds are very much in favor of the likely truth of this proposition. ;)

:Namaste:,

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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby Caodemarte on Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:04 pm

Joe said, "...but I would say that the person who is convinced that he or she is the one who does not need a teacher is the one who most needs the teacher."

Nicely said. Same is true of zazen and most other things. I believe this is one reason why private interviews with the teacher are often mandatory. It is very tempting to think " I am not ready" or much worse "I am too developed to need to show it" in order to evade a true face to face meeting.
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby TTT on Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:07 am

Nothing wrote:
Quiet Heart wrote::) I do have Zen teachers, they come to me many times a week.
They don't have to be flesh and blood humans, do they?
Just last week a young boy, maybe 2 years old and his mother were playing a game.
A life lesson from two teachers if you could just see it as I did.


Hi QuietHeart

Although I agree that siting zazen is not and should not be the only practice, it is very important practice especially in the beginning, and we need a actual zen teacher to show us how to do it correctly so we can apply the right effort in order to build a strong foundation. And until the practice become effortless a teacher is very much needed and can be of great help because there are many obstacles, problems that can arise during our practice and we can get stuck. This is not say that when the practice become effortless a teacher is not needed.

And yes, everyone, anything can be a teacher, but only that is not enough, we need strong foundation first.

Boddhidharma said that only one in million awakes without a help of a teacher. If you are convinced that you are the one, then you d not need a zen teacher. ;)


Victor :Namaste:


Hello and thanks Viktor and others.

So what is this practis that makes it effortless?

And to Joe : You say that people how does not have a formal teacher need one? But most people does have some sort of teacher. Like from formal education and so on.. This is one of sociatys stepping stons and fondations.
In Zen ther are teacher and ther are teacher, yes. Is this what you are saying?
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby TTT on Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:21 am

Caodemarte wrote:Joe said, "...but I would say that the person who is convinced that he or she is the one who does not need a teacher is the one who most needs the teacher."

Nicely said. Same is true of zazen and most other things. I believe this is one reason why private interviews with the teacher are often mandatory. It is very tempting to think " I am not ready" or much worse "I am too developed to need to show it" in order to evade a true face to face meeting.


Yes this is a barrier that one has. (Well put).

Thar is a saying that go s like this; the teacher will show him or her self, when the student is redy, for it.

PS. a small poem to this.

Redy now, forever or never
redy now.
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby Nothing on Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:57 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:N.,

Nothing wrote:If you are convinced that you are the one, then you d not need a zen teacher. ;)

Pardon, this is a bit of a "cheap-shot" of a reply from me, ...but I would say that the person who is convinced that he or she is the one who does not need a teacher is the one who most needs the teacher.

I cannot prove that, but I feel that the odds are very much in favor of the likely truth of this proposition. ;)

:Namaste:,

--Joe

No need for pardon Joe, my bad. I agree that your proposition is much more likely to be true. Thanks for correcting me :)

:Namaste: Viktor
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby Nothing on Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:03 pm

TTT wrote: So what is this practis that makes it effortless?


Hi TTT,

Don't want to be rude, but I am not sure that I understand your question, so I won't answer it now. Can you explain it or reformulate the question?
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:23 pm

TTT,

TTT wrote:And to Joe : You say that people how does not have a formal teacher need one? But most people does have some sort of teacher. Like from formal education and so on.. This is one of sociatys stepping stons and fondations.
In Zen ther are teacher and ther are teacher, yes. Is this what you are saying?

Yes, the way that Zen Buddhist practices are traditionally learned and cultivated is with a teacher and sangha.

--Joe
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby TTT on Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:56 am

Nothing wrote:
TTT wrote: So what is this practis that makes it effortless?


Hi TTT,

Don't want to be rude, but I am not sure that I understand your question, so I won't answer it now. Can you explain it or reformulate the question?


Yes, i can reformulate. My spontain anser wuld be zazen, or any meditation of sort. I am Reading a book right now Buddhism plain and simple by Steve Hagen. He writes a bit about "effortless", or "just as it is".
Others writes in books or talks about being in the now,´being at ease, etc...Lord Buddha talked about on how to become Realized on the path.

This is from the Dhammapada, and the capter the path. He talks about the eight fold path. This is in the end after the truble or the samsara.

Realizing
this force of reasoning
the wise man, restrained by virtue,
shuld make the path pure
- right away -
that gose all the way to Unbinding. 289



What can that mean?


Thanks.
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:53 pm

TTT,

TTT wrote:This is from the Dhammapada, and the chapter the path. He talks about the eight fold path. This is in the end after the truble or the samsara.

Realizing
this force of reasoning
the wise man, restrained by virtue,
shuld make the path pure
- right away -
that gose all the way to Unbinding. 289

What can that mean?

Thanks.

Here is a treatment that sheds a lot of light on the Dhammapada Verses 288 and 289. To me it's been very helpful to the understanding of the words, and helps me to connect the words to elements of practice and experience. Maybe it will be helpful to others here, too:

http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Dhammapa ... ara_Vatthu

Some salient lines are:

    Verse 288: Not sons, nor parents, nor close relatives can protect one assailed by Death; indeed, neither kith nor kin can give protection.

    Verse 289: Knowing this, the wise man restrained by morality should quickly clear (the obstacles to) the Path leading to Nibbana.

    But, let's see the background to these verses:

    The Story of Patacara (see note 1, below)

    While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (288) and (289) of this book, with reference to Patacara, the daughter of a rich man from Savatthi.

    As Patacara had lost her husband and her two sons, as well as her parents and three brothers almost at the same time, she was driven to near insanity. When she approached the Buddha, he said to her, "Patacara, sons and daughters cannot look after you; so even if they are alive they do not exist for you. The wise man observes morality (sila) and clears (the obstacles to) the Path leading to Nibbana."

    Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

    Verse 288: Not sons, nor parents, nor close relatives can protect one assailed by Death; indeed, neither kith nor kin can give protection.

    Verse 289: Knowing this, the wise man restrained by morality should quickly clear (the obstacles to) the Path leading to Nibbana.

    At the end of the discourse Patacara attained Sotapatti Fruition.

    (note 1) This story has been given in Verse 113

    End of Chapter Twenty: The Path
--Joe
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby Avisitor on Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:13 am

Quiet Heart wrote::) I do have Zen teachers, they come to me many times a week.
They don't have to be flesh and blood humans, do they?
Just last week a young boy, maybe 2 years old and his mother were playing a game.
A life lesson from two teachers if you could just see it as I did.


It is good to be open to new things to be learned ... I guess
Have seen some people who pick up a musical instrument and learn very fast how to play music
Some need formal instructions and very few don't

Well, to each their own path???
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: You mean without a formal teacher?

Postby TTT on Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:38 am

desert_woodworker wrote:TTT,

TTT wrote:This is from the Dhammapada, and the chapter the path. He talks about the eight fold path. This is in the end after the truble or the samsara.

Realizing
this force of reasoning
the wise man, restrained by virtue,
shuld make the path pure
- right away -
that gose all the way to Unbinding. 289

What can that mean?

Thanks.

Here is a treatment that sheds a lot of light on the Dhammapada Verses 288 and 289. To me it's been very helpful to the understanding of the words, and helps me to connect the words to elements of practice and experience. Maybe it will be helpful to others here, too:

http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Dhammapa ... ara_Vatthu

Some salient lines are:

    Verse 288: Not sons, nor parents, nor close relatives can protect one assailed by Death; indeed, neither kith nor kin can give protection.

    Verse 289: Knowing this, the wise man restrained by morality should quickly clear (the obstacles to) the Path leading to Nibbana.

    But, let's see the background to these verses:

    The Story of Patacara (see note 1, below)

    While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (288) and (289) of this book, with reference to Patacara, the daughter of a rich man from Savatthi.

    As Patacara had lost her husband and her two sons, as well as her parents and three brothers almost at the same time, she was driven to near insanity. When she approached the Buddha, he said to her, "Patacara, sons and daughters cannot look after you; so even if they are alive they do not exist for you. The wise man observes morality (sila) and clears (the obstacles to) the Path leading to Nibbana."

    Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

    Verse 288: Not sons, nor parents, nor close relatives can protect one assailed by Death; indeed, neither kith nor kin can give protection.

    Verse 289: Knowing this, the wise man restrained by morality should quickly clear (the obstacles to) the Path leading to Nibbana.

    At the end of the discourse Patacara attained Sotapatti Fruition.

    (note 1) This story has been given in Verse 113

    End of Chapter Twenty: The Path
--Joe


The story of Patacara Interesting.

I see, the story is about somthing. And it has a background. That is the inporatans of renunciation and mayby more.

The Buddha was a wise man.

My quote is from Thanissaro Bhikkhus translation of the Dhammapada.

It goes; 288;

There are no sons
to give shelter,
no father,
no family
for one seized by the Ender,
no shelter among kin.
When
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