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Samsara and the thee poisons.

A place to share and discuss the practice of Zen Buddhism without teachers. Debates about whether practicing without teachers is possible or desirable are not appropriate here, nor are criticisms of Zen Buddhist practice with teachers.
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A place to share and discuss the practice of Zen Buddhism without teachers. Debates about whether practising without teachers is possible or desirable are not appropriate here, nor are criticisms of Zen Buddhist practice with teachers.

Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby partofit22 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:23 pm

TTT wrote:
TTT wrote:Samsara and the three poisons.

What keeps it going?

We have ignorans, desier and hate.


This was the original post.


TTT, it appears that mind keeps samsara going- This too could also be viewed as a notion- Nobody knows for certain- That being said, it appears that mind can be used to bring us to this moment of not knowing anything for certain by way of working with ignorance, desire and hate-
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:30 pm

Great that we're posting stuff of additional value again. :)
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby partofit22 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:41 pm

fukasetsu wrote:Great that we're posting stuff of additional value again. :)


Turtles, candles, mirrors, flower seeds, eBay, movies, trees, paint, messy life, clean food, hot coffee, children, comfortable clothes .. I have attachments, too .. :)
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:45 pm

They come (and go) with the territory Teresa, I'd call them interests.

You don't want to see my list, you'd be reading a few more lines :)

ps would anyone actually like cold coffee? :lol2:
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby partofit22 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:51 pm

fukasetsu wrote:They come (and go) with the territory Teresa, I'd call them interests.

You don't want to see my list, you'd be reading a few more lines :)

ps would anyone actually like cold coffee? :lol2:


Yes, people here drink cold coffee all the time! On purpose!
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby partofit22 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:06 pm

At any rate, I have attachments- Patterns I fall into, work through- Sometimes get half way through- Sometimes experience freedom- I don't know to what benefit viewing liberation as a permanent state would prove- Seems that would create yet another type of blindness-
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:43 pm

partofit22 wrote:
Yes, people here drink cold coffee all the time! On purpose!


Your pulling my leg right? :lol2:

At any rate, I have attachments- Patterns I fall into, work through- Sometimes get half way through- Sometimes experience freedom- I don't know to what benefit viewing liberation as a permanent state would prove- Seems that would create yet another type of blindness-


So you mean attachments on a mental (personal) level?
For me there are aquired tastes, only when there are aquired tastes (or interest) which are not in play for a week or so and I notice there's a longing/habit energy coming, then do I call them attachments.

And there's also the distinction of harmless habits or habits which have negative results, but things change, harmless habits can evolve into habits of harm, and then I say goodbye. Simpel as that, but "attachments" I don't see there being an issue with them, they come with the territory or enviroment, for me freedom is not about having or not having something, freedom is my natural state, the rest is traffic, it doesn't becloud our pristine nature, if it does one might be living to much in one's head.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:08 pm

P., Teresa,

partofit22 wrote:I don't know to what benefit viewing liberation as a permanent state would prove- Seems that would create yet another type of blindness-

No use speculating if awakening or liberation is permanent or temporary. But, good to remember that one's true nature is not changed by one's benightedness in Samara. It's available to uncover, with the right sort of practice, and the proper, necessary, help.

One "permanently" has a true nature. Why not be in touch with it? Why let oneself stumble unskillfully in the dark? Or be...,

"Like a child of a wealthy home, wandering among the poor"? (from: Hakuin's SONG IN PRAISE OF ZAZEN).

I see no advantage being in the dark, ...unless you're an Astronomer like me. ;)

(Scientists like to joke, "If we knew what we were DOING, we wouldn't call it RESEARCH!").

When in the dark, you see, ...you can step on peoples' toes, and do other damages. Better to have all one's human inheritances uncovered, clarified and active. Then, with the depth and breadth of all your assets in play, true Wisdom and True compassion can arise, and operate in all circumstances (without your being blind to them).

I think we know enough already to "know" that nothing is permanent, though (but, please don't take it from me).

But having once -- or a number of times, as in Hakuin's, and Master Hsu Yun's, et al.'s case(s) -- awakened, or been liberated, one returns eventually to samsara after perhaps a long period of weeks or months, still practicing, and yet now better immune to the infections carried by The Three Poisons (which "arise endlessly", we recite in the Four Bodhisattva Vows). Samsara is not as bewitching and deadening, and entrapping (through habit and attachment) if one has at least woken up once.

We read that the Arhat wakes up and leaves the world alone. And, that the Bodhisattva by contrast practices in order to wake all beings. I'd say that neither the Arhat nor the Bodhisattva is "blind", to use your word from above.

Arhat and Bodhisattva are different, have different practice-histories, and have had different motivations, but they share a lot. And that's another conversation! But the Buddha's primary injunction applies naturally to both, I think: "Give up all that is evil; do all that is good".

Chao-Chou (Zhaozhou) said:

    "This nature existed before the appearance of the world. If the world ends, this will not end. From the time I saw my true self, there hasn't been anyone else. There's just the one in charge. So what is there to be sought elsewhere? At the moment you have this, don't turn your head or shuffle your brains! If you turn your head or shuffle your brains, it will be lost!" ( -transl. Andy Ferguson, 2011)
--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:15 pm

fukasetsu wrote:TTT, Guo Gu said that it's the very notion/idea of having (the 3 poisons) what keeps it going (samsara)

This is a very important point whether understood or not.

Perhaps it's good to go from there;

How do greed, hatred, ignorance arise (or where does it come from) it arises dependendly does it not?

No one has delusion or has awakening, it's not fixed nor does it have ownership, so who has it and who keeps it going?

How is it formed/manifested?


This is complicated. Can you elaborate?
:Namaste:
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:19 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:perhaps, another perspective would further.... what he says about the fuel of samsara

No Perceiver

"There is no need to hold onto being the experiencer of a particular experience. The moment you leave everything wide open, free from clinging and fixation, you discover that the concepts of perceiver and perceived naturally subside. The fuel of further samsara is exactly these dualistic concepts. When the perceiver and perceived naturally vanish, what is there to keep samsara alive? Train in this. It is like crossing a hundred rivers over one bridge!" Tulku Urgyen
From "As It Is" Vol. 2


This is a very good text!

:Namaste:
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:22 pm

partofit22 wrote:
TTT wrote:
TTT wrote:Samsara and the three poisons.

What keeps it going?

We have ignorans, desier and hate.


This was the original post.


TTT, it appears that mind keeps samsara going- This too could also be viewed as a notion- Nobody knows for certain- That being said, it appears that mind can be used to bring us to this moment of not knowing anything for certain by way of working with ignorance, desire and hate-


Yes, the mind is important and it is a creator!
This is one of my points in asking in this thred.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:24 pm

partofit22 wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:Great that we're posting stuff of additional value again. :)


Turtles, candles, mirrors, flower seeds, eBay, movies, trees, paint, messy life, clean food, hot coffee, children, comfortable clothes .. I have attachments, too .. :)


How does not?

:Namaste:
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:27 pm

[quote="fukasetsu"]

For me there are aquired tastes, only when there are aquired tastes (or interest) which are not in play for a week or so and I notice there's a longing/habit energy (quote]

I think thet enegry is a good way to explain this. I am a "human" and this has its deals, likes, nots, etc..
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:32 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
I see no advantage being in the dark, ...unless you're an Astronomer like me. ;)



--Joe

In the dark thar is good.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:06 pm

TTT wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:TTT, Guo Gu said that it's the very notion/idea of having (the 3 poisons) what keeps it going (samsara)

This is a very important point whether understood or not.

Perhaps it's good to go from there;

How do greed, hatred, ignorance arise (or where does it come from) it arises dependendly does it not?

No one has delusion or has awakening, it's not fixed nor does it have ownership, so who has it and who keeps it going?

How is it formed/manifested?


This is complicated. Can you elaborate?
:Namaste:


TTT,
I can only try to demonstrate per example of 'personal experience'

For instance when I was very young, I used to suffer from social anxieties, fear to go outside etcetera,
for years and years I was trying to find a cure, no psychologist would help, because (thanks to practise) I suddenly had an eureka moment when I saw that the very idea that there was something to fix or get rid of was exactly what enhanced or kept it going...the very idea of I have a problem, when that is resolved I am free.

I'm not saying one needs to be in denial like "oh I have no problem I'm not an alcoholic I can keep drinking"

But in the end self-grasping is subtle, it's the very narrative of "I have this, I don't want this, I need to get rid of this and then I will be happy/free/enlightened" etc.. is what only enhances the delusion or enforces the self-created prison. There's no need to escape from samsara, the very notion of escaping, is samsara ;)
'
You know it's like the proverb "you cannot clear a glass of muddy water by stirring it with a stick" (something similair)
Only by "non-movement" will there be clarity, it's the same with any action, it's all movements in consciousness, and any issue in consciousness cannot be solved on the level of consciousness, all that movement (narrative) will only make it muddier. The same applies with the notion of having in the example of Guo Gu, if I'm astray then Guo Gu can correct it, but I hope you can grasp the concept of what I'm pointing at a little better now. Otherwise just ask.

:)
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby partofit22 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:37 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:P., Teresa,

partofit22 wrote:I don't know to what benefit viewing liberation as a permanent state would prove- Seems that would create yet another type of blindness-

One "permanently" has a true nature. Why not be in touch with it? Why let oneself stumble unskillfully in the dark? "Like a child of a wealthy home, wandering among the poor"? (from: Hakuin's SONG IN PRAISE OF ZAZEN).

I see no advantage being in the dark, ...unless you're an Astronomer like me. ;)

(Scientists like to joke, "If we knew what we were DOING, we wouldn't call it RESEARCH!").

When in the dark, you see, ...you can step on peoples' toes, and do other damages. Better to have all one's human inheritances uncovered, clarified and active. Then, with the depth and breadth of all your assets in play, true Wisdom and True compassion can arise, and operate in all circumstances (without your being blind to them).

No use speculating if awakening or liberation is permanent or temporary. But, good to remember that one's true nature is not changed by one's benightedness in Samara. It's available to uncover, with the right sort of practice, and the proper, necessary, help.

I think we know enough already to "know" that nothing is permanent, though (but, please don't take it from me).

But having once -- or a number of times, as in Hakuin's, and Master Hsu Yun's, et al.'s case(s) -- awakened, or been liberated, one returns eventually to samsara after perhaps a long period of weeks or months, still practicing, and yet now better immune to the infections carried by The Three Poisons (which "arise endlessly", we recite in the Four Bodhisattva Vows). Samsara is not as bewitching and deadening, and entrapping (through habit and attachment) if one has at least woken up once.

We read that the Arhat wakes up and leaves the world alone. And, that the Bodhisattva by contrast practices in order to wake all beings. I'd say that neither the Arhat nor the Bodhisattva is "blind", to use your word from above.

Arhat and Bodhisattva are different, have different practice-histories, and have had different motivations, but they share a lot. And that's another conversation! But the Buddha's primary injunction applies naturally to both, I think: "Give up all that is evil; do all that is good".

--Joe


"One "permanently" has a true nature."


One does! But then again .. what's "one" what's "permanently"? Nobody knows- One can ask why stumble unskillfully in the dark, and yet continue to- :) All assets can and do come into play, then they also can and do fall away, too- Assets in play don't stay that way- If they did, a permanent self would be established-

"No use speculating if awakening or liberation is permanent or temporary."


Understood! However, when opinions are expressed, which happens frequently .. :) .. and those opinions take on the flavor of liberation being a permanent state, it invites conversations where people do speculate if awakening and liberation are permanent-

"remember that one's true nature is not changed by one's benightedness in Samara."


Yes- :)

"Samsara is not as bewitching and deadening, and entrapping (through habit and attachment) if one has at least woken up once."

Yes :)

"We read that the Arhat wakes up and leaves the world alone. And, that the Bodhisattva by contrast practices in order to wake all beings. I'd say that neither the Arhat nor the Bodhisattva is "blind", to use your word from above."


Do you remember back in the 60's, that commercial for The Fresh Air Fund? The one where the interviewer asks a small boy, "Have you ever seen a cow?" And the boy says, "Yeah, on a farm on TV." And the interviewer asks, "Would you like to see a real one?" And the boy replies, "Yeah. You take me there?"

I forget if he got to see the cow, on a farm, not on tv- Nonetheless, even from tv, he was aware of a cow's likeness ..
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:54 pm

partofit22 wrote:One does! But then again .. what's "one" what's "permanently"? Nobody knows- One can ask why stumble unskillfully in the dark, and yet continue to- :) All assets can and do come into play, then they also can and do fall away, too- Assets in play don't stay that way- If they did, a permanent self would be established-


Permanence and impermanence are human words, both can be used as medicine to negate one other, (in the case of ascribing reality to concepts or erroneous perception) but none hold reality nor is reality describable. Buddhist say "nothing is permanent for a good reason" eventhough our nature is "permanent", without an impermanent or temporary vessel (consciousness/body-mind) there is no awareness of it, nor could such words as "permanency" be expressed, and that's the beauty of it (a the cosmic joke)

So all-body knows, but such knowledge is temporary, but it's real knowledge nonetheless, not knowledge of mind, such knowledge is false. But even this is in the limited expressional capicity of a humanoid, that's why humility and "not-knowing" "not certain" the good way to go, nevertheless in experience express yourself, that's the whole purpose of us here.

Anyways, "Hui Hai" has good stuff to say about "permanence" and also about the mind grasping at the idea of permanence :)

I can savely say our nature is "permanent" eventhough the concept of permanence is a joke, but I understand its dependency and why impermanence is good medicine and permanence can be good too. But that doesn't change the facts, which are not in books.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby partofit22 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:11 pm

TTT wrote:
partofit22 wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:Great that we're posting stuff of additional value again. :)


Turtles, candles, mirrors, flower seeds, eBay, movies, trees, paint, messy life, clean food, hot coffee, children, comfortable clothes .. I have attachments, too .. :)


How does not?

:Namaste:


I don't know- :)
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby partofit22 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:21 pm

fukasetsu wrote:nevertheless in experience express yourself, that's the whole purpose of us here.


:) Yes

I can savely say our nature is "permanent" eventhough the concept of permanence is a joke, but I understand its dependency and why impermanence is good medicine and permanence can be good too. But that doesn't change the facts, which are not in books.


:) Yes

Every moment is a teaching-
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby fukasetsu on Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:45 pm

partofit22 wrote:Do you remember back in the 60's, that commercial for The Fresh Air Fund? The one where the interviewer asks a small boy, "Have you ever seen a cow?" And the boy says, "Yeah, on a farm on TV." And the interviewer asks, "Would you like to see a real one?" And the boy replies, "Yeah. You take me there?"

I forget if he got to see the cow, on a farm, not on tv- Nonetheless, even from tv, he was aware of a cow's likeness ..


This reminds me of the movie "Room" (2015)

You've seen it? I rated it a 10... It's a gem of a movie. :)

ps if you haven't seen it, read nothing, watch no trailer, as little as I know you, I know you will love it.
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