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Samsara and the thee poisons.

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A place to share and discuss the practice of Zen Buddhism without teachers. Debates about whether practising without teachers is possible or desirable are not appropriate here, nor are criticisms of Zen Buddhist practice with teachers.

Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:00 pm

P.,

partofit22 wrote:One does! But then again .. what's "one" what's "permanently"? Nobody knows-

"One" is what one has when awake like Buddha, for example. We won't (maybe can't) "say" what that is, as it is not a word, nor concept. "Permanently" means without intermittence (in one's experience). But we agree that awakening, as such, may not be permanent, and can erode or evaporate, leaving it up to further practice to deepen and more strongly establish realization. However, it's impossible to "see" how -- and probably nonsensical to posit that -- one's True Nature could not be permanent. True means true.

The way to "know" this is only to experience it (to embody it). There's no knowing of it with a moving mind (i.e., via "thought(s)". That's the rub.

(this may all be a little O.T., ...but I resolved long ago when I became a Philosopher to answer rhetorical questions. Often I excuse myself from doing so. But not today). :tongueincheek:

Take good care of yourself,

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby partofit22 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:00 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
partofit22 wrote:Do you remember back in the 60's, that commercial for The Fresh Air Fund? The one where the interviewer asks a small boy, "Have you ever seen a cow?" And the boy says, "Yeah, on a farm on TV." And the interviewer asks, "Would you like to see a real one?" And the boy replies, "Yeah. You take me there?"

I forget if he got to see the cow, on a farm, not on tv- Nonetheless, even from tv, he was aware of a cow's likeness ..


This reminds me of the movie "Room" (2015)

You've seen it? I rated it a 10... It's a gem of a movie. :)

ps if you haven't seen it, read nothing, watch no trailer, as little as I know you, I know you will love it.


Yes, and I loved it- I didn't read the book, didn't see a trailer- But I heard interviews about it just before the Academy Awards- However, nothing they said could have prepared me for it- Its a true 10-
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby partofit22 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:03 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Take good care of yourself


You too, Joe! :heya: And thank you for the exchange- :)
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Thu May 26, 2016 8:57 am

TTT wrote:Samsara and the three poisons.

What keeps it going?

We have ignorans, desier and hate.


Does Samsara ends, and what happens next?

:Namaste:
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Nothing on Thu May 26, 2016 11:10 am

TTT wrote:Does Samsara ends, and what happens next?
:Namaste:


Absolutely speaking there is no samsara so it cannot end, only that which exists can cease existing.
Samsara vs. nirvana, self vs no self are just expedients means that teachers use, so we can understand, not what we are, but we are not, cause what we are not can never understand what we really are.

So there is samsara because there is ignorance which lead us to the teaching of dependent arising or emptiness. All these questions and answers arise in relation to something, so the teaching of samsara vs nirvana arise or comes into existence the same way, but they do not have any reality on their own.

But because we are ignorant and think that we are separate individuals who exist on their own apart from the rest "I am this or that and the other self narative, samsara is real for us, so right effort is needed in order to remove that ignorance or understand what we are not.

And there is no before or after, but it can be said that whatever happens "after" samsara ends happens without any "I am" narrattive.

:Namaste:

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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri May 27, 2016 4:42 pm

TTT,

TTT wrote:Does Samsara ends, and what happens next?

This depends somewhat on whether you practice as a Theravada or a Mahayana person, and hence on whether you develop as an Arhat or a Bodhisattva.

The differences are real, but they -- Arhat, and Bodhisattva -- have much in common, as well

For example, both seem unavoidably to have helpful effects on others, even though we learn that only the Bodhisattva practices for the welfare of all beings. Nonetheless, I'd say that the Arhat helps others, too. Else, there would not be any Thervada teachers (!), for example, and Theravadins likewise would instead find little or no benefit in practicing together as a sangha (which they clearly do benefit from). Thus, the (common, "Western"?) mis-impression that the Arhat is "only out for herself" is belied by these other, very-present, facts.

Some standard books on Buddhist philosophy, practice, and history should answer the questions you pose, and more.

all very best,

--Joe
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Nothing on Fri May 27, 2016 10:28 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:TTT,

TTT wrote:Does Samsara ends, and what happens next?

This depends somewhat on whether you practice as a Theravada or a Mahayana person, and hence on whether you develop as an Arhat or a Bodhisattva.

The differences are real, but they -- Arhat, and Bodhisattva -- have much in common, as well

For example, both seem unavoidably to have helpful effects on others, even though we learn that only the Bodhisattva practices for the welfare of all beings. Nonetheless, I'd say that the Arhat helps others, too. Else, there would not be any Thervada teachers (!), for example, and Theravadins likewise would instead find little or no benefit in practicing together as a sangha (which they clearly do benefit from). Thus, the (common, "Western"?) mis-impression that the Arhat is "only out for herself" is belied by these other, very-present, facts.

Some standard books on Buddhist philosophy, practice, and history should answer the questions you pose, and more.


all very best,

--Joe


Hi Joe

I don't know in what context TTT is asking the question, whether in the context of arhat vs bodhisatva or as general question of what happens, what kind of change happens at the 'individual' level.

However In my opinion that division of arhat vs bodhisattva is unnecessary, just creating confusion and unnecessary comparing and really not at all important for the practice. With no disrecpet intended toward zen tradition in which I practice too, taking the bodhisattva ideal as higher one is kind of an elitist view.

But lets say that is real. Can we say for example that Ajahn Chah was not bodhisattva and his heirs Sumedho and Bramh are not too?
Also the zen monks who spend all their lives practicing in some isolated monasteries that they are boddhisattvas and that they practice for the well being of the others and not for their own at first?

And to answer the question in the context in which you gave answer, what happens after samsara ends in theravada or mahayana, there is no difference, the path is and can be diffrent but the liberation is same and every liberated person will do the best of his possibilities to help other beings.

Just my two cents :)
:Namaste:

Victor
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Re: Samsara and the three poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat May 28, 2016 12:08 am

Victor, thanks.

I think that, if one is practicing, and presumably practicing correctly, one is a member of a sangha, associated with a teacher. That teacher will be in a lineage of other teachers stretching back quite far (long). And that lineage will have been practicing within a certain tradition, with certain particular features.

Theravada and Mahayana have different features. I give full assent to this (that... ), and try to appreciate the differences and the features as the members and practitioners in those traditions appreciate and uphold them.

It's not for me -- nor for anyone else, I hope, unless for the founder of a NEW religion -- to say what is "unnecessary" in a tradition, or within some lineage in a tradition. If one is within a tradition, there is no "confusion", as you see. One is clear about one's tradition, and can describe and explain it to others (if one is mature in it). And one need not compare or contrast oneself with others, ...although it is legal to do.

Those who call themselves Arhats, and are called Arhats by others in their tradition -- say, the Ajaans -- I "allow" to be Arhats, and take them at their word that that is what they are. Those who are Bodhisattvas, I likewise allow to be Bodhisattvas, and give them the appropriate appreciation, just as such (such as the Dalai Lama, an incarnation of Chenrezig). I see no confusion, in other words.

I think that the Mahayana is a stream of Buddhism that developed a bit later -- a bit after -- Theravada. Anyway, that's what the Theravadins say. This does not mean that Mahayanists -- who consider themselves to be Mahayanists -- are "elitist", because, "Johnnie-come-latelys", they followed on the heels of the Theravadins.

Quantum Mechanics developed after Newtonian Mechanics. Does this mean that Quantum Mechanical Physicists are elitists compared with Newtonian Mechanical Physicists? No. Their practices are entirely consistent, correct, and appropriate within the realm, within the region, within the regime in which they do their work. And Quantum Mechanics people can easily do Newtonian Mechanics problems, and vice versa (usually), if they are truly mature and adept Yogis in their fields, with an interest in all of Nature. Yet, each perhaps chooses to associate most closely with a certain outlook, or a familiar or favorite, suitable, area of rich practice, which they make "home", or feel at home within. No problem... . Karmic forces drive and direct Scientists, as well as Buddhists! ;)

The fact remains that the differences between Theravada and Mahayana are real. That's also why they have different names. I salute the differences. ...As well as the similarities, originating in our original teacher, Shakyamuni Buddha, and in compassionate geniuses and great practitioners who came after his final parinirvana.

For TTT, I can still recommend reading(s) in some basic books, for structure, and for a well-ordered scaffolding on which to approach and visit diverse and long-established, long-lasting, strong threads throughout Buddhism's various traditions. Some might even say, throughout the various "Buddhisms", plural! I'm not sure that I go as far as that, but perhaps I should. I'll keep practicing, and doing some study. It's still "early days" in the West, I'd say, and even in any individual's life (so it feels like).

best, and best, TTT,

--Joe
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Re: Samsara and the three poisons.

Postby Nothing on Sat May 28, 2016 9:48 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Victor, thanks.

I think that, if one is practicing, and presumably practicing correctly, one is a member of a sangha, associated with a teacher. That teacher will be in a lineage of other teachers stretching back quite far (long). And that lineage will have been practicing within a certain tradition, with certain particular features.

Theravada and Mahayana have different features. I give full assent to this (that... ), and try to appreciate the differences and the features as the members and practitioners in those traditions appreciate and uphold them.

Thanks for the reply Joe.
I fully agree, they do have different features and I am not denying that and I appreciate the richness of Buddhism and one should explore and see what fits him.

desert_woodworker wrote:It's not for me -- nor for anyone else, I hope, unless for the founder of a NEW religion -- to say what is "unnecessary" in a tradition, or within some lineage in a tradition. If one is within a tradition, there is no "confusion", as you see. One is clear about one's tradition, and can describe and explain it to others (if one is mature in it). And one need not compare or contrast oneself with others, ...although it is legal to do.


I did not mean unnecessary in absolute sense, that it should not exist at all in first place and yes when one is already within tradition there is not any confusion, but for the beginner, for those who are acquainted for first time with Buddhism all those concepts and comparison can be confusing and off putting and can increase the time until one engage in practice.

I have noticed that the scholars in many introductory books on Buddhism are in favor of some tradition. Those in favor of Theravada say it is the older so the true, original Buddhism, those in favor of Mahayana say they are the higher vehicle the Bodhisattva ideal as higher one etc, you know all that, and in that context I meant kind of elitist, not from the perspective of the serious practitioner or the teachers.

So in my opinion all forms, flavors of Buddhism should be presented to those who are showing initial interest in Buddhism but without taking any stance or in favor of any tradition, just lay them down and let them explore and choose for themselves, don't lead them to this or that.

desert_woodworker wrote: Those who call themselves Arhats, and are called Arhats by others in their tradition -- say, the Ajaans -- I "allow" to be Arhats, and take them at their word that that is what they are. Those who are Bodhisattvas, I likewise allow to be Bodhisattvas, and give them the appropriate appreciation, just as such (such as the Dalai Lama, an incarnation of Chenrezig). I see no confusion, in other words.

I think that the Mahayana is a stream of Buddhism that developed a bit later -- a bit after -- Theravada. Anyway, that's what the Theravadins say. This does not mean that Mahayanists -- who consider themselves to be Mahayanists -- are "elitist", because, "Johnnie-come-latelys", they followed on the heels of the Theravadins.


Yes, at least what the scholars say, but I really do not care who is first and who developed second, it is of no importance for the practice ;)
And you know that neither the Bodhisattvas nor Arhats care about labels, all those expedients, concepts need to be left behind, they are beyond that. And I am sure you also know that at some point of the practice it does not matter, it does not have any difference whether you are practicing Theravadin, Mahayanist or Vajrayanist.

desert_woodworker wrote: Quantum Mechanics developed after Newtonian Mechanics. Does this mean that Quantum Mechanical Physicists are elitists compared with Newtonian Mechanical Physicists? No. Their practices are entirely consistent, correct, and appropriate within the realm, within the region, within the regime in which they do their work. And Quantum Mechanics people can easily do Newtonian Mechanics problems, and vice versa (usually), if they are truly mature and adept Yogis in their fields, with an interest in all of Nature. Yet, each perhaps chooses to associate most closely with a certain outlook, or a familiar or favorite, suitable, area of rich practice, which they make "home", or feel at home within. No problem... . Karmic forces drive and direct Scientists, as well as Buddhists! ;)

Well said, I concur :)

desert_woodworker wrote: It's still "early days" in the West, I'd say, and even in any individual's life (so it feels like).

yes, still in a infant phase :)


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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat May 28, 2016 5:54 pm

Thanks, Viktor! All good points.

The key point for TTT, perhaps is that the differences are real between Theravada and Mahayana (even though that is not his question. His Q. instead is what happens next... ).

Theravada schools encourage and emphasize the perfection and mastery of jhana states, samadhi states, states of meditation;

Mahayana schools encourage and emphasize the perfection of Wisdom, prajna, and the development by the Bodhisattva of upaya, skillful means.

And, really, as one Theravada (Forest Tradition) teacher said plainly (Ajaan Thanissaro Bhikku), "Nobody's getting out of here [samsara] without helping others".

So, the element of true, natural compassion and connected-ness is real in both vehicles, as ...how could it not be?

:Namaste:,

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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Sat May 28, 2016 11:41 pm

I am a bit tired at the moment. Its after midnight here.

I culd anser with a Great Shin Buddhist poem that i like a lot.

84,000 delusions
84,000 lights
84,000 delights

Or i culd be practical in descraibng how. For example in stages of compleations and generations.
Or poetica like;

The knife cutting the grass.
is not realy a knife.

But, given time i will read all the posts, and if i can respond, i will do so. I am limited to time and sleep :blush: :blush: :blush:
:Namaste:
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun May 29, 2016 1:12 am

TTT,

May the night protect you,
and refresh you.
It is the cool shadow
of the great Earth.

It will do its work while you sleep;
nothing else is needed.

--Joe
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Nothing on Sun May 29, 2016 10:32 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Thanks, Viktor! All good points.

The key point for TTT, perhaps is that the differences are real between Theravada and Mahayana (even though that is not his question. His Q. instead is what happens next... ).

Theravada schools encourage and emphasize the perfection and mastery of jhana states, samadhi states, states of meditation;

Mahayana schools encourage and emphasize the perfection of Wisdom, prajna, and the development by the Bodhisattva of upaya, skillful means.

And, really, as one Theravada (Forest Tradition) teacher said plainly (Ajaan Thanissaro Bhikku), "Nobody's getting out of here [samsara] without helping others".

So, the element of true, natural compassion and connected-ness is real in both vehicles, as ...how could it not be?

:Namaste:,

--Joe


Joe,

Yes, that is good description of the both schools in a nutshell. TTT could find it helpful.

I remember that saying of Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu, could not be more true. :rbow:

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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby fukasetsu on Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:04 am

Joe, Victor, TTT...

1-1.jpg


2.jpg


tilopa.jpg


In a nutshel :)
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:42 am

desert_woodworker wrote:TTT,

TTT wrote:Does Samsara ends, and what happens next?

This depends somewhat on whether you practice as a Theravada or a Mahayana person, and hence on whether you develop as an Arhat or a Bodhisattva.

The differences are real, but they -- Arhat, and Bodhisattva -- have much in common, as well

For example, both seem unavoidably to have helpful effects on others, even though we learn that only the Bodhisattva practices for the welfare of all beings. Nonetheless, I'd say that the Arhat helps others, too. Else, there would not be any Thervada teachers (!), for example, and Theravadins likewise would instead find little or no benefit in practicing together as a sangha (which they clearly do benefit from). Thus, the (common, "Western"?) mis-impression that the Arhat is "only out for herself" is belied by these other, very-present, facts.

Some standard books on Buddhist philosophy, practice, and history should answer the questions you pose, and more.

all very best,

--Joe


Yes, you are right there is a differens. Mahayana and Hinayana likwise. Sarvoka - Buddhas are counted as Arhats. They hear the liberation from the mouth of the Buddha in the for of teaching.
Arhat means "one how is worthy", "Perfect person" and is one how have attained nirvana.

This is from wiki.

In Mahayana Buddhism, bodhisattva is the Sanskrit term for anyone who, motivated by great compassion, has generated bodhicitta, which is a spontaneous wish to attain buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings. Bodhisattvas are a popular subject in Buddhist art.


:Namaste:
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Nothing on Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:53 pm

fukasetsu wrote:Joe, Victor, TTT...

1-1.jpg


2.jpg


tilopa.jpg


In a nutshel :)


Fuka

You gave us the absolute nutshell of all teachings or so called spiritual traditions, you know the other was more of a relative nutshell so to speak. :)

p.s. Again i betrayed the friendship of Mahamudra :PP:
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:12 pm

Nothing wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:Joe, Victor, TTT...

1-1.jpg


2.jpg


tilopa.jpg


In a nutshel :)


Fuka

You gave us the absolute nutshell of all teachings or so called spiritual traditions, you know the other was more of a relative nutshell so to speak. :)

p.s. Again i betrayed the friendship of Mahamudra :PP:


So what happens next? And what happens to you?

"all is burning with desire"

Lord Buddha

"All faules things must perish"

Gravediggers.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:29 pm

TTT wrote:So what happens next? And what happens to you?

"all is burning with desire"
Lord Buddha

"All faules things must perish"
Gravediggers.

"Abiding nowhere, let this Mind flow forth". --Diamond Sutra

Stick to nothing, just as "the Lotus does not adhere to water". As situations arise, let the spontaneous arising of true Wisdom and true Compassion operate to meet the situations, in Wise and Compassionate response. I'd say that this is "what happens next".

Else, a person pollutes all of life, and increases karma (and entropy ;) ).

--Joe
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Mason on Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:48 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Theravada schools encourage and emphasize the perfection and mastery of jhana states, samadhi states, states of meditation;

Mahayana schools encourage and emphasize the perfection of Wisdom, prajna, and the development by the Bodhisattva of upaya, skillful means.


To be clear, Theravada schools also emphasize the wisdom borne of insight above all else (the jhanas are merely a means to that end), and many Mahayana schools also emphasize samadhi.

If I were to attempt to differentiate them concisely, I would say that in Theravada there is finally a duality between samsara and nirvana, whereas in Mahayana they are ultimately non-dual.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:30 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
TTT wrote:So what happens next? And what happens to you?

"all is burning with desire"
Lord Buddha

"All faules things must perish"
Gravediggers.

"Abiding nowhere, let this Mind flow forth". --Diamond Sutra

Stick to nothing, just as "the Lotus does not adhere to water". As situations arise, let the spontaneous arising of true Wisdom and true Compassion operate to meet the situations, in Wise and Compassionate response. I'd say that this is "what happens next".

Else, a person pollutes all of life, and increases karma (and entropy ;) ).

--Joe


Yes, you are right.

All start with the motivation. Then we go on and do what ever we are about to do.
It goes on with the practis. All this begins with the motivation. If i am thinking of sitting meditation example this is the first step.

There is one of Thanissaro Bikkhus teaching,
he is talking about mind and concentration.
Its in Youtube, just check.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9132SqUE9Us
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