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Samsara and the thee poisons.

A place to share and discuss the practice of Zen Buddhism without teachers. Debates about whether practicing without teachers is possible or desirable are not appropriate here, nor are criticisms of Zen Buddhist practice with teachers.
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A place to share and discuss the practice of Zen Buddhism without teachers. Debates about whether practising without teachers is possible or desirable are not appropriate here, nor are criticisms of Zen Buddhist practice with teachers.

Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:41 am

Samsara and the three poisons.

What keeps it going?

We have ignorans, desier and hate.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby chankin1937 on Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:12 pm

TTT,
TTT wrote: Samsara and the three poisons.
What keeps it going?
We have ignorans, desier and hate.


Hello TTT.
Those are human traits; they will crop up among us persistently.
All we can do is disassociate ourselves from them.
Colin
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Guo Gu on Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:37 pm

TTT wrote:Samsara and the three poisons.

What keeps it going?

We have ignorans, desier and hate.


this very perception of having keeps it going. having and lacking, coming and going, self and other... from where do these thoughts arise and to where they go?

be well,
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
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Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:54 pm

Colin,
Colin wrote:From Chuang Chu (died 286-275 B.C). The greatest of the Taoist thinkers.
Page 189 of “Chinese philosophy in Classical Times” by E.R.Hughes

Colin wrote:and page 191...[ibid.]

Colin wrote:And page 209....[ibid.]

Good "Daoist" stuff, all. No Dao-bt about it.

Let me remind you of forum rules: This is a Zen Buddhist discussion area.

--Joe
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:45 pm

Guo Gu wrote:this very perception of having keeps it going. having and lacking, coming and going, self and other... from where do these thoughts arise and to where they go?

be well,
guo gu


Astute and to the heart of it, no matter weeding the branches, but dig out the root, thanks.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:34 am

chankin1937 wrote:TTT,
TTT wrote: Samsara and the three poisons.
What keeps it going?
We have ignorans, desier and hate.


Hello TTT.
Those are human traits; they will crop up among us persistently.
All we can do is disassociate ourselves from them.
Colin


But how can we do that? I am not very good at this.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:40 am

Guo Gu wrote:
TTT wrote:Samsara and the three poisons.

What keeps it going?

We have ignorans, desier and hate.


this very perception of having keeps it going. having and lacking, coming and going, self and other... from where do these thoughts arise and to where they go?

be well,
guo gu


Ther are meny ansers or ansers leading to other questions what is the anser and what will come out of it, but how am i to say this, etc. Having an anser is good, not allways thought.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:45 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
We can see that all three require an imposition of a "self" over one's true nature.



I dont realy know what imposing means, is it some sort of presur?
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:50 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
When one's practice is not strong, one's true nature becomes covered-over again and cloaked by the residue and results of one's un-awakened action(s) (karma), leading to all the operating ills implicit in an assumed substantial self, and so leading also to the incessant arising of the Three Poisons for the duration in which the assumed self is allowed to persist, due again to a lack of sufficiently strong and correct practice.



Joe. If you ask my one shuld be meek and soft, and not to strong and correct.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:50 am

TTT,

TTT wrote:But how can we do that? I am not very good at this.

Practice of the right kind is meant to put an end to suffering of those kinds (they are mostly varieties of self-caused suffering).

If practice does not help when learned and carried out without a teacher, then try it when learned and carried out WITH a teacher, I'd suggest. One can always go back to "no teacher", if that becomes necessary or preferred.

Best wishes,

--Joe
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:56 am

TTT,

TTT wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:We can see that all three require an imposition of a "self" over one's true nature.

I dont realy know what imposing means, is it some sort of presur?

Yes, thanks. Well, maybe not "pressure". But "imposing" could mean simply "placing", or even just assuming that there IS a "self" which is additional to our true nature.

Or, we could be confusing the five skandhas for a "self", but the "contents" of the skandhas are all made up of temporary and transient things that happen, things that come and go, and so the skandhas thus have no fixed and permanent nature, and cannot be honestly said to be a "self", if one investigates them. There is nothing unchanging or permanent about them.

--Joe
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Re: Samsara and the three poisons.

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:16 am

Dear TTT,

TTT wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
When one's practice is not strong, one's true nature becomes covered-over again and cloaked by the residue and results of one's un-awakened action(s) (karma), leading to all the operating ills implicit in an assumed substantial self, and so leading also to the incessant arising of the Three Poisons for the duration in which the assumed self is allowed to persist, due again to a lack of sufficiently strong and correct practice.

Joe. If you ask my one shuld be meek and soft, and not to strong and correct.

"Strong" here, refers to practice, and means strongly-healthy, and appropriate to our situation, and our true nature. Strong also means "effective", in bringing us to awakening and realization, and in being able to maintain realization.

Practice is medicine, and medicine should always be correct, and strong (effective), otherwise it is not GOOD medicine, and not well-prescribed.

"Correct" means learned correctly, and modified to suit the conditions of our lives, and also modified further and progressively as the conditions of our practice and of our lives change. As we change and as our conditions and influences change, our overall practice also changes (usually, it can be good to have a teacher to help us by suggesting in particular WHAT we should change, if anything, and to what extent). I'd say that changing our practice in accord with our circumstances and our condition is what keeps our practice strong, and correct. Again, often we are not the best judge of what we should do (or not do) at many points, and this is where a Dharma-friend can definitely be very helpful.

--Joe
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Linda Anderson on Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:52 am

TTT wrote:Samsara and the three poisons.

What keeps it going?

We have ignorans, desier and hate.


TTT,
You ask a simple question, I will give a simple answer as best I can.

It comes down to me being separate from other beings... as any of us being separate from other beings. Soon enough as humans, most of us see this, we suffer, some call it samsara, but mostly, it's a feeling of loss and lack that we can't connect and relate to other and to the vastness in humanity and the universe. It's not all that grand, it's so human we can feel it without saying so. It's like a memory that we can't quite remember and questions come up. Most people feel the separation and some look for more as you are, as many of us are. That kind of thinking, because it is a kind of thinking, is fixed and does not have the ability to relate and adjust to what is actually happening... you could then say it is fixed. Samsara could be said to be fixed.... it can't grow and change with what it experiences nor what is around it. You could say that samsara does not know how to dance with life.... if it only had the right dance moves. Another way to say it is that dancing is wonderfully dynamic, soft and responsive to the surroundings.... and it helps us to forget ourselves and be the dance.

So what keeps it going? Pretty soon, we may become fixed in a view simply to keep ourselves safe.... or so we think that will keep us safe. maybe yes, maybe no. Still, we hold to our self-images.... that is helpful when we need it, and then we look for a larger life. As long as we are turned towards safety for ourselves, which means that we believe ourselves and our thoughts, samsara is a possibility. Of course, safety is only an idea, not a reality. When we ask, what keeps it going, as you have, it opens the gate to see more. Simply asking the question is enough. See what happens in your life. Seems to me that you have an ability to observe what is around you.

I have consciously not used words and concepts like three poisons, samsara, no self, five skandas and strong practice.... this is a human path and I hear a question from feeling ... we are best served by opening to wisdom. Sometimes, it is enough to ask a question and make space for an honest answer from within. Nothing fancy here, it happens everyday in life when we realize we are exactly where we are and it is a good thing.... then, so-called samsara just can't be found.

best wishes TTT
linda

I've always been touched by your questions because you are not asking from separation,
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Anders on Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:00 am

chankin1937 wrote:However,
Why should one particular set of ideas – the ego – be singled out for elimination when, in meditation, all sets of ideas must be temporarily abandoned. Not because they are wrong but because they have played their part in enabling us to solve our problems. Conscious mental activity plays no part in our being happy. It is a tool and all tools are laid aside once they have been used. Unfortunately modern people are slaves to conscious mental activity – they never experience peace-of-mind. Meditation can [in time] provide access to high degrees of a feeling we conventionally call happiness.


In principle, I agree. it is most straightforward to just abandon everything.

In practise, some ideas are more subtle and elusive than others. And some ideas rely on other ideas to hold up. The notion of self is worth drawing attention to as it is not only incredibly insidious (it's not hard to have an experience that appears to be that of 'no mentation' that nonetheless includes a perceiver of said non-mentation). Furthermore, when the idea of self collapses, a vast house of cards of mentation falls along with it.

To simply go with no-ideas opens up some avenues for self-conception to elude oneself. Adding in no-self is just a way to make sure it goes all the way as, when not-self is understood, no-ideation is also understood and vice versa, provided it goes all the way through.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Anders on Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:05 am

TTT wrote:Samsara and the three poisons.

What keeps it going?

We have ignorans, desier and hate.


I think Guo Gu gave good pointers. There is an ignorance of how stuff arises before us involved. Though, of late, 'ignorance' is not a satisfying label to me. It implies a noun, a state of [non-]knowledge, keeping thing hidden. I'm more inclined to consider it an active verb of 'looking somewhere else'.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby bubuyaya on Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:29 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:
TTT wrote:Samsara and the three poisons.
What keeps it going?
We have ignorans, desier and hate.


(modified Linda's.)
It comes down by being separate from other beings, such as the vastness of humanity and the same universe.

Most people feel the separation and some look for more as you are, as many of us are.
Samsara could be said to be fixed to only partial me., not whole me.

When we ask, what keeps it going, as you have, it opens the gate to see more.
Simply asking the question is enough.
See what happens in your life. Seems to me that you have an ability to observe what is around you.

Sometimes, it is enough to ask a question and make space for an honest answer from within.
Nothing fancy here, it happens everyday in life when we realize we are exactly where we are and it is a good thing. then, so-called samsara just can't be found.

I've always been touched by your questions because you are not asking from separation,


Hi, TTT.
Hi, Linda.

TTT that saying that "samsara" keeps it going.
TTT that saying that "three poisons" have that three poisons.

Then what can change samsara to Paradise?

TTT that saying that "samsara" is just Paradise.
So there is no need to change any samsara.
Rather be TTT, which is real Paradise.

Let's understand more.
When TTT say "yes" or "no".
The answering meaning or form of "yes" or "no" is different each other.
But TTT that saying that "yes" or "no" is just TTT, the real TTT in TTT's physical body.
That real TTT in TTT's physical body is always Paradise.

Likewise,
TTT that saying that "samsara" or "Paradise" is just same TTT, who is King of Paradise.

Have nice day TTT.
Happy day Linda.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:21 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:TTT,

TTT wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:We can see that all three require an imposition of a "self" over one's true nature.

I dont realy know what imposing means, is it some sort of presur?

Yes, thanks. Well, maybe not "pressure". But "imposing" could mean simply "placing", or even just assuming that there IS a "self" which is additional to our true nature.


So what is this "self" that you are writting?
Last edited by TTT on Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Samsara and the three poisons.

Postby TTT on Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:38 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Dear TTT,

TTT wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
Practice is medicine, and medicine should always be correct, and strong (effective), otherwise it is not GOOD medicine, and not well-prescribed.



This may be true.

To quote Khenchen Thrangu in his book Everyday consciousness and primordial awarness.

"The causes for Happines and Joy are dependent on the mind, as is allso the causes for suffering".

Taken that view the mind is the creator of samsara. Can this be the anser to my question what starts it and what keeps it going?
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby TTT on Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:42 pm

bubuyaya wrote:
Linda Anderson wrote:
TTT wrote:Samsara and the three poisons.
What keeps it going?
We have ignorans, desier and hate.


(modified Linda's.)
It comes down by being separate from other beings, such as the vastness of humanity and the same universe.

Most people feel the separation and some look for more as you are, as many of us are.
Samsara could be said to be fixed to only partial me., not whole me.

When we ask, what keeps it going, as you have, it opens the gate to see more.
Simply asking the question is enough.
See what happens in your life. Seems to me that you have an ability to observe what is around you.

Sometimes, it is enough to ask a question and make space for an honest answer from within.
Nothing fancy here, it happens everyday in life when we realize we are exactly where we are and it is a good thing. then, so-called samsara just can't be found.

I've always been touched by your questions because you are not asking from separation,


Hi, TTT.
Hi, Linda.

TTT that saying that "samsara" keeps it going.
TTT that saying that "three poisons" have that three poisons.

Then what can change samsara to Paradise?

TTT that saying that "samsara" is just Paradise.
So there is no need to change any samsara.
Rather be TTT, which is real Paradise.

Let's understand more.
When TTT say "yes" or "no".
The answering meaning or form of "yes" or "no" is different each other.
But TTT that saying that "yes" or "no" is just TTT, the real TTT in TTT's physical body.
That real TTT in TTT's physical body is always Paradise.

Likewise,
TTT that saying that "samsara" or "Paradise" is just same TTT, who is King of Paradise.

Have nice day TTT.
Happy day Linda.


You are writting this and for my to get to paradis is to turn away, not off but away in an evasive manner.
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For those how go beyond, for those how go below.
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Re: Samsara and the thee poisons.

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:38 pm

TTT,
Forgive me for saying so, Bubu isn't talking about turning away from anything tho it may seem so. give it another go, Bubu is a poet... what may look evasive is more like giving the mind nothing to hold onto.

he's saying, be yourself, all of yourself beyond self

TTT that saying that "samsara" is just Paradise.
So there is no need to change any samsara.
Rather be TTT, which is real Paradise.


and, don't miss the way he took my words and found the gold,

:ghug:
Last edited by Linda Anderson on Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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