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is kensho a kind of feeling ?

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A place to share and discuss the practice of Zen Buddhism without teachers. Debates about whether practising without teachers is possible or desirable are not appropriate here, nor are criticisms of Zen Buddhist practice with teachers.

is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby klqv on Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:31 am

hi, i'm totally gonna see a teacher soon! but until then.... :heya:

is kensho a feeling? can it ever feel like submitting or giving in?
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby Avisitor on Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:29 pm

I have heard that it is the breaking down of duality
And the singleness of self is lost to the oneness of the universe
But, to me that is just a lot of words with no meaning.
I would not believe that Kensho is a kind of feeling rather more of an experience.
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby klqv on Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:25 pm

a way of thinking?
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby Avisitor on Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:41 pm

klqv wrote:a way of thinking?

No way of thinking


Edit: Why not just go see the teacher and start learning, practice and experience it for yourself??
Some say it is like drinking water. Only when you drink the water for yourself will you know what it means to drink water.
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby klqv on Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:02 pm

ok. i meant a way of thinking without thinking !
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:54 pm

Luke,

It "is" a few things.

First, a stopping. The "madness" of the "mad-mind" stops. Buddha (in sutras) himself is given to speak about a "great cessation".

Second, it's a seeing of our true nature (and seeing how widely it is shared, let's say). What does that mean?: I won't say! :)

Third, related to the first and second, it is intimacy, true intimacy, blocked by no blockages, and no screens.

Kensho is not a kind of feeling, no (so, I don't understand about "submitting or giving in"). It's not a kind of anything. It is, however, being awake, and playing with a full deck. Wisdom and Compassion arise in it.

Others may say other things, but we can all look at each others' statements and smile a smile of recognition. As it should be.

Interesting!, that you post this question now. I was just sitting down to start a new thread, with a title, "Four Things to Know... ".

With the best of encouragement for seeing a teacher, and many blessings,

--Joe

klqv wrote:hi, i'm totally gonna see a teacher soon! but until then.... :heya:

is kensho a feeling? can it ever feel like submitting or giving in?
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby klqv on Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:26 pm

are you saying that true nature and seeing that true nature is the same for everyone ? its expression, too?
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:38 pm

Hi, Luke,

are you saying that true nature and seeing that true nature is the same for everyone ?

Well, yes.

its expression, too?

Well, no. Expressions may differ. But they will all amount to the same thing.
(that's how a teacher can tell when your experience and condition is genuine).

best!,

--Joe

klqv wrote:are you saying that true nature and seeing that true nature is the same for everyone ? its expression, too?
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby klqv on Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:00 pm

hmm.

not that i'm a spiritual shopper, but what you say is OK with me :Namaste: :peace:
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby Michaeljc on Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:15 pm

Earth shattering experiences are not uncommon in this practice. The impact can persist for some time but eventually all that remains is an aftertaste. Classifying and labelling these occurrences is not a natural tendency over the longer term. What is left? This is why very few people will openly discuss their experience. They are/where simply what they are/where and are left as such. Categorising them is a kind of affront.

This practice is about now. What label can we place on this?

Nothing can be gained through consideration of Kensho

The way I see it right now

m
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:21 pm

M.,

HA! If only it were so easy! ;)

--Joe

:lol2:

Michaeljc wrote:Nothing can be gained through consideration of Kensho
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:11 am

klqv wrote:hi, i'm totally gonna see a teacher soon! but until then.... :heya:

is kensho a feeling? can it ever feel like submitting or giving in?

No.

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:29 am

Michaeljc wrote:Nothing can be gained through consideration of Kensho

Is that meant to be taken in the sense of "nothing can be gained through consideration of zen"?

Zen is kensho. And yes, nothing can be "gained" by consideration of the Dharma, zen, or kensho. But that should not be taken as an admonition to not consider the Dharma, zen, and kensho. Consideration comes from the root meaning to be with (con) the stars (sider). When we look up at the night sky and are moved to view the stars attentively we are considering. So there is a meaning of consider that leans to the intellectual and judgmental side as in considering for the purpose of making a decision, but for the Buddha Dharma the meaning of consider that is appropriate is the meaning of "to view attentively", to "contemplate", to "reflect on" and has the meaning of vipasyana (觀, guan, kan) as insightful observation or introspection.

So even if nothing is "gained" by consideration of kensho, there is no Dharma without kensho, as Siddhartha Gotama's kensho under the Bodhi Tree was the gate to the Buddha Dharma.

All Zen lineages now extant flow through the Sixth Ancestor Huineng who said:

Listen to my verse that says:

The fluency of articulation and the fluency of mind
Are like the sun located in empty space.
I only transmit this Dharma of seeing-the-nature (kensho),
That goes beyond the world and defeats wrong lineages.

In the Dharma as it is, there is no sudden or gradual;
In delusion and awakening there are the slow and the quick.
It's just that this gate of seeing-nature
Is not able to be comprehended by ignorant people.

Although it is articulated as it is in myriad ways,
United with principle it returns to the one.
Within the dark house of afflictions,
It must always give birth to the sun of wisdom (prajna).

As wrong views come, the afflictions arrive.
As right views come, the afflictions are gotten rid of.
When wrong views and right views altogether are not employed,
The clear and pure arrives without remainder.


_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:41 am

Michael,

I know what'cha mean. There's no benefit in a second- or third-hand appreciation. One must be, oneself, modified by embodying the EXPERIENCE.

But I hope you like nonetheless the joke I make in my first reply to your post. ;)

...where, for fun, I tacitly interpret your "Nothing" as "Emptiness", or "Mu" or "wu", for a moment, as if you were making a positive statement. Oh, well (sorry to explain... ). :lol2:

--Joe

Michaeljc wrote:Nothing can be gained through consideration of Kensho
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby klqv on Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:45 am

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:
klqv wrote:hi, i'm totally gonna see a teacher soon! but until then.... :heya:

is kensho a feeling? can it ever feel like submitting or giving in?

No.

_/|\_
Gregory

not a sort of tranquillity then?

if it's not a feeling, or a belief, then i am not sure what it could be.
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby klqv on Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:07 pm

if by belief we mean consciousness of whatever transience
if by feeling we mean sense object or organ
and there is nothing in addition to these...

then i can't see what else kensho can be, apart from maybe someone else's belief or feeling about you


:Namaste:
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby Chrisd on Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:36 pm

Maybe you should imagine it to be some kind of extreme awesomeness, not comprehendable but extremelelely awesome and totally worth getting. And then go for it. :dance:
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby klqv on Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:37 pm

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:



:dance: :<.<: :<.<:
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:06 pm

Perfect. That's just as it should be, Luke.

It is not imaginable.

--Joe

klqv wrote: then i can't see what else kensho can be, ...
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Re: is kensho a kind of feeling ?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:14 pm

Chris,

But completely ordinary, everything ordinary, but very real, completely real, completely present, no screens or separateness between you and the world and beings. Thorough and complete intimacy.

There is joy, too: "Dharma Joy". Why should there not be? Coming home is good.

Joy bubbles up. Wisdom and Compassion arise just as bidden, just as encouraged by circumstances, that is. It is miraculous, indeed. But ordinary, ordinary!

Not special, not "awesome" in any way to "throw us off"; we are totally available to all beings, and our every act is for all beings, through a marvelous and miraculous "call-and-response", which operates entirely naturally, again, in closest accord with circumstances. As I like to say, you cannot even fit a piece of tissue-paper between there, or "them", ...like the stones in the stonework walls of Maachu Pichu, or in ancient Mexico City.

Hail!

--Joe

Chrisd wrote:Maybe you should imagine it to be some kind of extreme awesomeness, not comprehendable but extremelelely awesome and totally worth getting. And then go for it.
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