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Question One

For beginners there is no such thing as a bad question. Feel free to ask any and all questions here. Member's responses should be made within the "beginner's mind" perspective.

Re: Question One

Postby Larry on Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:32 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Awakening and the Buddhamind is "just" being awake to all our original Human inheritances (having un-covered them, and having them uncovered), and being able to use them freely....Sorry, this does not address the question about "love" at all

Surely Love is at the very Heart of Awakening. It's probably down to definitions again. Enver's last comments imply he means Unconditional Love, with a capital L, rather than just romantic love.

"The teachings on love given by the Buddha are clear, scientific, and applicable… Love, compassion, joy, and equanimity are the very nature of an enlightened person. They are the four aspects of true love within ourselves and within everyone and everything.” ~Thich Nhat Hanh

We'll have to forgive old Thay for his use of the E word :)
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Re: Question One

Postby Larry on Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:42 am

Four posts in a row....The spirit of bokki is infectious :lol2:
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Re: Question One

Postby organizational on Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:16 am

bokki wrote:well anyway
im sry org
this is going 2 b way 2 much


so u com up with so much
good
funny
deep
silly
an what not
questions?
so................
u exp;ect some1 2 answer?
what?
zfi
mens zen fo....an so on

ma, even so is 2 much,
i just like 2 banter with zenies
so
do wat u will
bt post some



org :heya:


:)


:heya:
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Re: Question One

Postby TTT on Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:16 pm

Larry wrote:
TTT wrote:Winston Churchill s dog was called Cheekers and it was a bulldog.

Churchill's most famous bulldog was "Dodo" who he bought at the age of 17 by selling his bicycle. I can't find any mention of "Cheekers". Maybe you're confusing him with Chequers, the country home of all British Prime Ministers.
Churchill also had a parrot, "Charlie", who he taught to swear obscenities against Hitler :lol2:


ok now i know
When
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Re: Question One

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:13 pm

hi, Larry,

Larry wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Awakening and the Buddhamind is "just" being awake to all our original Human inheritances (having un-covered them, and having them uncovered), and being able to use them freely....Sorry, this does not address the question about "love" at all

Surely Love is at the very Heart of Awakening. It's probably down to definitions again. Enver's last comments imply he means Unconditional Love, with a capital L, rather than just romantic love.

I think it's better to experience and understand what is meant by karuna, true Compassion. Love is not involved in it at all, in the awakened state. As good as love may be for self and others when a person is not awakened, it is not present in awakening, in the awakened state. True compassion is something entirely different, and functions without attachment. I wouldn't say that these facts about true Compassion and the awakened state are a matter of "definition", but they are a matter of reality, a matter of "what is the case". Since few people have awakened, they perhaps try to rely on "definitions", but, unfortunately, it appears that the so-called definitions for the bulk of public consumption and use are made up by people who do not know the meaning of the word. And they don't know the meaning of the word because they do not know the reality of true Compassion. That's unfortunate of course, and the only remedy and source of discovery of what true Compassion is, is, from a Buddhist point of view, correct and effective practice.

Larry wrote:We'll have to forgive old Thay for his use of the E word :)

I think he uses it because most other people do, and they think they understand it. Another reason may be that English is not his first language. Now, I don't know the vocabulary for "awake" and "awakened" in French, but maybe he uses it, instead of the equivalent of the misleading "enlightened", when speaking to folks in Plum Village, dunno.

I'll note, too, that TNH uses mention of "Love" in many of his addresses and writings as a skillful means, and not because there is any trace of it in the awakened state. In the awakened state, there is true Wisdom (prajna), and true Compassion (karuna) (and Joy and Equanimity, and Sympathetic Joy, certainly). So, his kindly little fib is for practical purposes, I'd say, and maybe it will help some people to awaken. But it is not a description of the functioning of the awakened person or bodhisattva within the awakened state. That is, there is true Compassion, informed by true Wisdom, and there is not love. There cannot be love, because... there is no separation. What we call "true Compassion" (karuna) is just the natural way that beings behave when they are awake. That's not love. And not a matter of "definition".

So, no, my reply to Enver didn't address "love" at all. I'm off-topic. :tongueincheek:

--Joe
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Re: Question One

Postby Larry on Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:40 pm

I understand what you're saying but, without elaborating, I think my experience differs slightly from yours. Is it possible for there to be a "state" which transcends both love & hate....which is simply called Love? Without picking & choosing....Unconditional Love. Hopefully without sounding insulting, do you personally ever experience Unconditional Love? When Awake? When "Asleep"? both? or neither? If both, is it in any way heightened when you are Awake? or totally unrelated?

Do Chan & Zen so rarely mention Love because it so obviously overflows?

Awaiting your response with great interest :)
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Re: Question One

Postby bokki on Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:02 pm

ill ask Joyous Sympathy
bout this
im sure shell have
a word or
2
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA Chef
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Re: Question One

Postby Larry on Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:06 pm

Please send my regards :)
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Re: Question One

Postby bokki on Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:16 pm

yep, just received a sms from
JS
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA Chef
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Re: Question One

Postby bokki on Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:18 pm

she basicaly said
"joe is a joy"
well, i certainly cant understand every1 koan
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: Question One

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:37 pm

Larry,

Thanks for our discussion. This is really very pleasant. And if we may be adjudged to be off-topic, I shall reform if badgered.

Larry wrote:I understand what you're saying but, without elaborating, I think my experience differs slightly from yours. Is it possible for there to be a "state" which transcends both love & hate....which is simply called Love? Without picking & choosing....Unconditional Love.

Well, now, that "possible" word will, as usual, be troublesome. I'd say, "Yes", it's possible. But that state would not be the awakened state.

Likely, it would be the state of "One Mind", or "Unified Mind", as my shihfu called it, in Ch'an practice. Unified Mind is still a far step removed from no-mind. No-mind, or the awakened state, is the condition in which true Wisdom and true Compassion can and do arise spontaneously and simultaneously in seamless response to circumstances and occurrences. At One-Mind, this does not happen.

Usually, those who practice to the breakthrough to no-mind have passed through one-mind, but it's hard to remember the details of conditions in one-mind because it's so paltry compared to no-mind, where all our original human inheritances are uncovered and available to use freely. And I wouldn't recommend staying at one-mind, so although some such state as you mention with regard to love and hate and "transcending" both may ...again, your word... be "possible", I can only say, "So what?!", and, "Don't buy into it", as it is only a palliative, and completely unreliable, because true Wisdom is not present. Uninformed by true Wisdom, a person makes a lot of mistakes. Caution! ;) This is why Chan masters and Zen masters continue to spur a student along who has landed at one-mind, and where the student feels it's a great state to lodge at. The Chan master will in skillful ways encourage the student onward to no-mind (see also "the Great Death").

Larry wrote: Hopefully without sounding insulting, do you personally ever experience Unconditional Love? When Awake? When "Asleep"? both? or neither? If both, is it in any way heightened when you are Awake? or totally unrelated?

No problem, and thanks for your kindly care in presenting the question(s). I'd say that I think it's my first response, but is subject to change as familiarity and experience develop to guide me. But in the awakened state, there is no unconditional love, as love is not present.

Awakening is not permanent, so your question is indeed relevant. If we are going to spend much of our life in an unawakened state, with at least one or more breakthroughs and sloughings-off to the no-mind state, we see that we still need continued practice, precepts, and vows.

As there's nothing like "agape" present or posited in Buddhist experience, I'll stay away from using the term "unconditional love", as it's certainly not relevant in the awakened state (for being entirely absent). And in other states, because of the absence then of true Wisdom, it's unreliable to put stock in or have stake in singing the praises of, aggrandizing, or recommending any palliative or attachment. In the awakened state there is nothing to hold onto, and no way to do any holding. Everything goes, everything is gone, but for true Wisdom, true Compassion, and Skillful Means, and they arise in response to conditions and occurrences, not because we hold them, nor because we uphold them.

Larry wrote:Do Chan & Zen so rarely mention Love because it so obviously overflows?

Chan and Zen adepts who have awakened, I'd say, don't mention love -- and it doesn't much get into recorded sayings or writings, and hence into the literature -- because it's not there to remark on.

Larry wrote:Awaiting your response with great interest :)

Thanks again for our interchange.

--Joe
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Re: Question One

Postby bokki on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:24 pm

so
no mind
is soooooooooooooooooo
much better than 1
mind
even some old masters
were strict bout it
jiggy with it
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA Chef
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Re: Question One

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:37 pm

bokki wrote:so
no mind
is soooooooooooooooooo
much better than 1
mind

To paraphrase (by truncating) the slogan of a particular college charity scholarship fund in USA, "A Mind is a Terrible Thing".

--Joe

ps Shihfu Sheng Yen's schema, or summary, runs: "Scattered Mind; Simplified Mind; One Mind; No-Mind (Chan-Mind)".
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Re: Question One

Postby bokki on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:47 pm

college charity scholarship fund in USA, "A Mind is a Terrible Thing".

i would not give them a cent
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: Question One

Postby bokki on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:51 pm

mind phobic shit
and fear of a myself
headlong
out 2
emptiness
dont want 2 know myself
2 sick 2 c a u
?>??????????????????????????//
fk d marygoround
what u com up next
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: Question One

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:53 pm

bokki wrote:i would not give them a cent

No. It seems that people must fund and enable their own Buddhist practice, even as they may help the practice of others.

Buddha is given to have said on his death bed, "Work out your own liberation with diligence!"

--Joe
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Re: Question One

Postby organizational on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:09 pm

bokki wrote:yep, just received a sms from
JS

she basicaly said"joe is a joy"well,
i certainly cant understand every1 koan


hi bokki,

i got a sms too.from some white friends
there it says(my translation)
"Your walk away without reason
your cross of my heart
your left of dreams
Don't let me to forget
And i understand the last time, thinking
i made my war to the end
and only you don't understand, grasp
you wrote and bring your end
And i understand the last time, thinking
i made my war to the end
and only you don't understand, grasp
you wrote and bring your end
and last

cheers, :coffee:
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Re: Question One

Postby organizational on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:21 pm

to summarize they say
you want and we killed you
we hold up to the end

too personal?
eeh,

,
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Re: Question One

Postby bokki on Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:08 pm

sry org
sry forum
c u in a day or 2
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: Question One

Postby Larry on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:32 pm

Hi Joe
A couple of final thoughts :)
desert_woodworker wrote:As there's nothing like "agape" present or posited in Buddhist experience, I'll stay away from using the term "unconditional love"

I think Theravada Metta comes pretty close. But I guess you'd say it's just an expedient concept or method on the path towards full Awakening. Dare I say, Loveless Awakening :lol2:

Thanks very much for your detailed replies. I always learn a lot from your experience, wisdom & Chan/Zen perspective :)

:rbow:

With Metta :)

Larry
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