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Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:52 pm

Michaeljc wrote:I remember at a sesshin being told to handle the sutra scriptures with care. To me they were just words on paper - with profound meaning maybe.


Mike, I think that might have to do with respect to the past and thanking we have the conditions today and the availability to the dharma, where scripture (especially the "correct" ones) weren't so easily available as today.

When I saw the movie Xuan Zang last week, I instantly had a different feeling towards scripture and much respect for efforts in the past.
So it's not the scripture itself but it's cherisable or sacred because lots of conditions had to be favourable so that you could hold that scripture now. All my books have coffee stains on them but I'm guessing the care has to do with that.
Here's the link to that movie, although I've read about it before, but only seeing it acted out I generated these feelings and respect so to say

/viewtopic.php?f=116&t=11752
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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:11 am

Michael, best regards,

Michaeljc wrote:Just sharing a personal perspective Joe but I don't see anything to slander. It implies that there is a degree of sacredness in the practice and its record

No attorneys in your family, Michael? Nor in mine, either. But slander is a legal term, you see. Face up to it.

Michaeljc wrote:I remember at a sesshin being told to handle the sutra scriptures with care. To me they were just words on paper - with profound meaning maybe.

At sesshin in our challenging communal practice, it's all about decorum, uniformity, respect, and saving sentient beings. Make no mistake. It's all been worked-out over about 1500 years of compassionate geniuses' pulling for us, and awakening their disciples.

Not too soon; not too late. Next time, keep it in mind (he said, gently).

Just another (long!-) lapsed-Catholic's view; Buddhist since 1979, Ch'an sect.

--Joe
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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:12 am

According to Zen master Hakuin, there is no ultimate difference between the Nembutsu and koan practice:

Supposing you have one man who is occupied with the koan of Chao-chou’s Mu and
another who devotes himself exclusively to the calling of the Buddha’s
name. If the meditation of the former is not pure, if his determination is
not firm, even if he devotes himself to the koan for ten or twenty years,
he will gain no benefit whatsoever. The man who calls the Buddha’s name,
on the other hand, should he call it with complete concentration and
undiluted purity, should he neither concern himself with the filthy mundane
world nor seek the Pure Land, but proceed determinedly without
retrogression, he will, before ten days have passed, gain the benefits of
samadhi, produce the wisdom of the Buddha, and achieve the Great Matter
of salvation in the very place he stands...

Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly, he
has reached the state where the mind is undisturbed. The Great Matter
appears suddenly before him and his salvation is determined. Such a man
can be called one who has truly seen into his own nature. His own body
is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems,
the pond of the eight virtues.
tspro.ru/loadpdf/download/asin=0861713699&type=full


Anyone on this forum who thinks they understand Zen better than Hakuin is probably ignorant or deluded. I am not saying this to be hurtful or offensive. I am only stating what should already be obvious. :hugs:

It is not my fault when certain Westerners, who claim to practice Zen, are willfully ignorant of what Zen masters have taught throughout history. May they be happy and well. :Namaste:
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:38 pm

I am nothing special. I am sorry if I have given the impression that I think I am somehow special. I am just a foolish man, sharing the words of wise men who said wise things.

Image
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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Caodemarte on Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:35 pm

BB, are you the same poster under a different name who corrects Theravada practioners and others in similar terms on the Theravada Dhammawheel site? I have seen several identically worded double postings here, often apparently taken from your blog or wharever you link to in your signature line (sorry, my internet vocabulary is limited). I understand from comments there that you are doing the same thing on Dharmawheel under another name. No problem in principle with being active on several forums if you are interested in several topics (I am the one who noted on DW that there was a discussion here on Zen and Pure Land when people wondered why it was being discussed on a Theravada site). I do wonder if there may be a pattern here which might explain many of your posts and responses which are otherwise difficult to fully understand.
Last edited by Caodemarte on Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:54 pm

BB, et al.,

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:According to Zen master Hakuin, there is no ultimate difference between the Nembutsu and koan practice:

There are differences. For example, one practice is called "Nembutsu". The other practice is called "koan practice". And still another (not mentioned above) is called "chih-kuan-ta-tso" ("shikantaza").

If they were not different, they would not "go by different names", like us (I'm Desert_Woodworker; you're Boatman Bodhisattva).

    1.) I think it bears repeating that one aspect of Buddhist practice (especially of Zen Buddhist practice... ) is the initial fruit and consummation of seeing and living the Unity of all things.

    2.) As one continues to practice after awakening, one comes also to develop and cultivate the subsequent fruit and consummation of practice, which is seeing and appreciating and living the differences within the Unity. Only then does the practitioner approach becoming mature.
Until these consummations ('devoutly to be wished'), it's good to be somewhat tentative in making incompletely-informed assertions, lest one need to eat copious Crow, afterwards, or during (esp. if one proclaims oneself a vegetarian animal of some stripe). Plus, one would not want to mislead vulnerable others, who may know even less than oneself.

Well, having now come to the end of this post, let me say, ...as Michael would say, "as I see it"!

best, All,

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:31 pm

oh, and Michael... ,

Michaeljc wrote:Just sharing a personal perspective Joe but I don't see anything to slander. It implies that there is a degree of sacredness in the practice and its record

I'd say, too, that if life itself has any degree of sacredness (I feel it does... ), then the opportunity to wake-up to one's original and full human-nature in this life is extra-special sacred indeed.

That "waking-up" enables a person to live completely (realized). Buddhist traditions and lineages and sanghas are in the business of helping people wake-up, and thus to realize their lives fully: there's the sacredness. It's the world's greatest opportunity, since being born.

Don't be misled by an errant Roman Catholic idea of "sacred". We're talking REAL Life, here! :lol2: :heya:

Though, I understand that one person's 'sacred' may be another person's 'profane'. Maybe it can't be helped... . Although, practice usually brings a person around.

Cheers,

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:55 am

A common interpretation of Pure Land practice, outside the Zen tradition, is that the Pure Land is a magical paradise for after we die, as if it doesn't matter what we do or don't do in the present life. I do not hold to this interpretation, and neither did Hakuin:

The man who calls the Buddha’s name,
on the other hand, should he call it with complete concentration and
undiluted purity,should he neither concern himself with the filthy mundane
world nor seek the Pure Land, but proceed determinedly without
retrogression, he will, before ten days have passed, gain the benefits of
samadhi, produce the wisdom of the Buddha,and achieve the Great Matter
of salvation in the very place he stands...

How sad it is that the
Pure Land practitioners today are unaware of the basic aspiration of the
many Buddhas.They believe only that the Buddha is in the Western Land
and are unaware that the Western Land is the basis of their own minds...

Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly, he
has reached the state where the mind is undisturbed. The Great Matter
appears suddenly before him and his salvation is determined.Such a man
can be called one who has truly seen into his own nature. His own body
is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems,
the pond of the eight virtues...

In the past the Buddha established expedients; one was
called “rebirth in the Pure Land,” another “seeing into one’s own
nature.”How can these be two different things! Zen people who have not
penetrated to this understanding look at a Pure Land practitioner and
think that he is a stupid and evil common person who knows nothing
about the Great Matter of seeing into one’s own nature...


This is known as rebirth in the Pure Land. This is known as seeing
into one’s own nature...

Never doubt that without seeing
into your own nature you cannot become a Buddha; without seeing into
your own nature there is no Pure Land...
tspro.ru/loadpdf/download/asin=0861713699&type=full


As Zen masters like Hakuin have taught throughout history, it is a delusion of the ego to see a separation or distinction between Amida and our true Buddha-self. The Pure Land, for someone who sees into their true nature, is here and now, rather than billions of galaxies away.

Books from Zen masters on Pure Land practice are widely and freely available, especially due to the Young Men's Buddhist Association:
http://www.ymba.org/free-books

I am sorry for possibly hurting or offending anyone. We should be mindful of the millions of Ch'an/Zen Buddhists throughout history who've recited the Nembutsu as a meditation device, just as the masters have taught.

On a related note, Shinran Shonin, who founded the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan, didn't see the Nembutsu as a free pass to do evil either, as if Amida is a magical savior deity:
It is deplorable that you have told people to abandon themselves to their hearts’ desires and to do anything they want. One must seek to cast off the evil of this world and to cease doing wretched deeds; this is what it means to reject the world and to live the Nembutsu.
http://shinranworks.com/letters/lamp-fo ... ages/16-2/
Last edited by Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:23 am

desert_woodworker wrote:If they were not different, they would not "go by different names", like us (I'm Desert_Woodworker; you're Boatman Bodhisattva).


The content of the
practices may vary but what difference is there in the goal that is reached?...

It should be known that those who think that the Mu koan and the recitation of the Buddha’s name are two
different things belong to the class of evil heretics...
tspro.ru/loadpdf/download/asin=0861713699&type=full


You are perhaps missing the fundamental point, seeing only external appearances instead of the ultimate truth.

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:Anyone on this forum who thinks they understand Zen better than Hakuin is probably ignorant or deluded. I am not saying this to be hurtful or offensive.
Last edited by Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:28 am

Caodemarte wrote:BB, are you the same poster under a different name who corrects Theravada practioners and others in similar terms on the Theravada Dhammawheel site?


Unless one has something substantive to say, based on what Zen masters have taught throughout history, please don't respond to my posts. I am only here to discuss and learn from what Zen masters have taught throughout history, not to be discouraged in that regard. Thank you. :Namaste:
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:47 am

I am not here for external validation or to be "liked." A troll looks to incite others for incitement's sake, while I only care about finding the truth, no matter what others might think of it.

Buddhism is about, from its foundation, telling the ordinary mind what it doesn't want to hear, like how life is suffering. I've been blessed enough to have some good teachers in my life, so I don't need to entertain ideas that aren't supported by history.

What others believe and practice is their own concern, so I am not going to tell others what to think or believe. Asking others to be respectful of history is not the same as telling them what to believe and practice in their own personal life. I'm sorry if I've given any impression otherwise.

The combined practice of Zen and Pure Land has been, throughout history, the norm and not the exception, especially in China and Vietnam. And in Japan, there's the Obaku school of Zen:

The Ōbaku-shū emphasized the taking of various precepts and also observed the Vinaya of the Dharmaguptaka tradition as well as sutra translation. But perhaps most obvious to the Japanese was their use of nembutsu[16] and also their use of the "nembutsu kōan" which entailed the practice of reciting the name of Amitabha while holding in one's mind the kōan, "Who is reciting?"[8] While foreign to the Japanese (despite this "dual practice" being introduced in Japan as early as the late 13th century),[17] this was very common in Ming period Ch'an, where there was no sectarian divide between Pure Land Buddhists and Ch'an practitioners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cbaku
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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Caodemarte on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:40 pm

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:BB, are you the same poster under a different name who corrects Theravada practioners and others in similar terms on the Theravada Dhammawheel site?


Unless one has something substantive to say, based on what Zen masters have taught throughout history, please don't respond to my posts. I am only here to discuss and learn from what Zen masters have taught throughout history, not to be discouraged in that regard. Thank you. :Namaste:


Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:I am not here for external validation or to be "liked." A troll looks to incite others for incitement's sake, while I only care about finding the truth, no matter what others might think of it..


Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:It is not my fault when certain Westerners, who claim to practice Zen, are willfully ignorant of what Zen masters have taught throughout history.


In my own case, I personally claim only to be trying to practice Buddhism and study its history. It is for that reason that I try to partipate in this forum.

There is no ill will towards you. Various people here have tried and failed to establish a meaningful dialogue with you on Zen Buddhism and Zen practice (the purpose of this forum). A major part of that is the effort to understand what you are trying to say, why you communicate the way you do, to "respond" in order to help you and to help ourselves (much the same thing). If that effort on my part is unskillful, not helping, or not wanted, then it is foolish to continue it.
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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:22 pm

Caodemarte wrote:In my own case, I personally claim only to be trying to practice Buddhism and study its history. It is for that reason that I try to partipate in this forum.


And I am sincerely sorry if I've said anything historically inaccurate or which dishonors any individual as a human being.

There is a difference between calling out an inconsistency and trashing someone as an inferior person, which I've tried to avoid doing. In the same token, you can love your country while criticizing its policies.
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:00 pm

Please keep in mind that I don't call myself a Pure Land Buddhist, since I don't believe that Amida is a literal, historical Buddha, and neither do I believe that the Pure Land is a literal place, billions of galaxies away.

Instead, I almost exclusively base my understanding of Pure Land practice on what Zen masters have taught throughout history, a topic of which I have read about extensively for several years.

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:A common interpretation of Pure Land practice, outside the Zen tradition, is that the Pure Land is a magical paradise for after we die, as if it doesn't matter what we do or don't do in the present life...

As Zen masters like Hakuin have taught throughout history, it is a delusion of the ego to see a separation or distinction between Amida and our true Buddha-self. The Pure Land, for someone who sees into their true nature, is here and now, rather than billions of galaxies away.


The only difference between who I am now and who I was two years ago is that I now outright call myself a Zen Buddhist, instead of worrying about what Pure Land Buddhists will think or say about me.

I've taken enough flak from Pure Land Buddhists for not being Pure Land enough, that I'm sure as sugar not going to take flak from Zen Buddhists for not being Zen enough. In countries like China and Vietnam, the combined practice of Zen and Pure Land is the norm, not the exception, especially among lay people.
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:28 pm

Mindfulness or recollection of the Buddha, the original meaning of the word "Nembutsu," has been practiced from the beginning of Buddhism. If one is interested in a Zen interpretation of Pure Land practice, I recommend reading Buddha of Infinite Light by D. T. Suzuki or Finding Our True Home by Thich Nhat Hanh.

As Zen/Ch'an masters have taught for centuries, the meaning of Pure Land practice, in its deeper sense, is awakening to Amida as our true nature, and to the Pure Land as the here and now. This is similar to how the Pali scriptures recommend Buddha-recollection to cultivate the Buddha's enlightened qualities within ourselves.

I am not going to judge others who, in their own Pure Land practice, have a different interpretation, just as I wouldn't judge Zen Buddhists who choose to abstain from Pure Land practice entirely. I'm sorry if I've given an impression of one practice or interpretation being superior to another.
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:40 pm

Yes, it's all good for those with a weird to cotton to it.

Here's a thread that starts with a list from memory of some practices honored in several lineages (shared by many). Recitation and/or recollection is subsumed under one or more of the practices there.

http://zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=11265

It's an "Embarrassment of Riches", the practices and ways worked-out by compassionate geniuses over centuries, which we inherit. Hail!

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:45 pm

This is one of my favorite teachings of the Buddha:

Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these — ‘You understand this doctrine and discipline? I’m the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You’re practicing wrongly. I’m practicing rightly. I’m being consistent. You’re not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You’re defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!’ — he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


I am sorry for any time on this forum in which I've deviated from this teaching.
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

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Re: Zen/Ch'an for Lay Householders

Postby Caodemarte on Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:44 pm

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:Please keep in mind that I don't call myself a Pure Land Buddhist, since I don't believe that Amida is a literal, historical Buddha, and neither do I believe that the Pure Land is a literal place, billions of galaxies away.

Instead, I almost exclusively base my understanding of Pure Land practice on what Zen masters have taught throughout history, a topic of which I have read about extensively for several years.

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:A common interpretation of Pure Land practice, outside the Zen tradition, is that the Pure Land is a magical paradise for after we die, as if it doesn't matter what we do or don't do in the present life...

As Zen masters like Hakuin have taught throughout history, it is a delusion of the ego to see a separation or distinction between Amida and our true Buddha-self. The Pure Land, for someone who sees into their true nature, is here and now, rather than billions of galaxies away.


The only difference between who I am now and who I was two years ago is that I now outright call myself a Zen Buddhist, instead of worrying about what Pure Land Buddhists will think or say about me.

I've taken enough flak from Pure Land Buddhists for not being Pure Land enough, that I'm sure as sugar not going to take flak from Zen Buddhists for not being Zen enough. In countries like China and Vietnam, the combined practice of Zen and Pure Land is the norm, not the exception, especially among lay people.



If you have not and really base your understanding of Pure Land practice on what Zen people have said, you might want to read what Pure Land "ancestors" and (especially the moderns) have written as well as Zen advice to Pure Land practioners. You will find much of their writings the same as that of Zen "ancestors" (some are the same people). That is not to say they are identical traditions, simply that by going west around a globe you can meet people going east, if you travel far enough. All seem united in saying just reading about Buddhism won't help you get anywhere.
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