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The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

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The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Sadaparibhuta on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm

In the four Bodhisattva vows, we vow to "save them all." How is this accomplished in Zen Buddhism?

Are Zen masters reborn into future human births in order to continue saving all beings or are they somehow spiritually present in the world instead, like an angel?

How does one "save them all," without some sort of continued existence? I appreciate your help. :Namaste:
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby jundo on Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:14 pm

Sadaparibhuta wrote:In the four Bodhisattva vows, we vow to "save them all." How is this accomplished in Zen Buddhism?

Are Zen masters reborn into future human births in order to continue saving all beings or are they somehow spiritually present in the world instead, like an angel?

How does one "save them all," without some sort of continued existence? I appreciate your help. :Namaste:


I don't know or give a damn about future lives, but in this one ...

We strive to save all Sentient Beings though likely impossible (too bloody many, and the ignorance too great!).

But anyway, no Sentient Beings to save from the startless start, nor any suffering right to the endless end ... thus POOF! THE JOB IS DONE!

That being said, let us feed some hungry faces in this world, and try to cure some disease and stop some wars. Next world or previous lives aside, this world needs work!

Kannon may be just a dream. But when your hands work to feed a hungry child, your two hands are the hand of Kannon! You, through your actions, make Kannon Real!

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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Caodemarte on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:38 pm

Could I suggest that if one saves oneself one is also saving the whole world (and the reverse)? The Abrahamic religions seem to say that "saving one life is saving all." Jesus is quoted as saying 'What you to the least of these, you do unto me." Of course, in the Mahayana there is nothing to be saved which makes it possible to save but that's a deeper discussion.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby macdougdoug on Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:24 pm

Last time I asked this question, the only answer I got was another question : "where do all these sentient beings abide?"

This was many years ago - now I suppose that every time the separation between you and me, or the separation between good and bad, dissapears, all sentient beings have been saved.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Sadaparibhuta on Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:34 pm

jundo wrote:I don't know or give a damn about future lives, but in this one ...


Image
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby bokki on Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:51 pm

Sada, Reverend Jundo is an orthodox Soto Teacher residing in japan. its the first time i hear him being called a hippie or beatnik, rev. remember?, and if u want 2 hear from old masters, y not read their words, this is live dharma.. lol u really just started 2 years ago and front such.. lol u rock
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby bokki on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:40 pm

lol u rock sada bodhissatva lol rambo lol
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby bokki on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:34 pm

i suppose we, that is i, have 2 accept The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism..with love and understanding. lot of respect, big bro.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Seeker242 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:19 pm

Sadaparibhuta wrote:we vow to "save them all." How is this accomplished


That right there is the $20,000 question! :)X
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Humbaba on Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:18 pm

Sadaparibhuta wrote:How does one "save them all," without some sort of continued existence? I appreciate your help. :Namaste:


The individual aggregate ceases to exist but the whole continues. In the Bodhisattva vow to liberate all beings I see a shift in Mahayana from "individual salvation" to "collective salvation." In the same way that the Bodhisattva vows to liberate all beings, it is the effort of all beings that achieves liberation. Thus, you don't carry the destiny of the world on your shoulders, but you don’t get to paradise ahead of your fellow being. We just do what is possible within the limits of our means.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Dan74 on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:00 pm

bokki wrote:Sada, Reverend Jundo is an orthodox Soto Teacher residing in japan. its the first time i hear him being called a hippie or beatnik, rev. remember?, and if u want 2 hear from old masters, y not read their words, this is live dharma.. lol u really just started 2 years ago and front such.. lol u rock


Bokki, one can say many things about Rev. Jundo, but he is not an orthodox teacher. By his own admission, he is a rebel and a reformer. His teacher, Gudo Nishijima, was somewhat of an outsider in Zen circles and Rev Jundo went much further, I believe. But he can correct me.

You may well like his message, but don't confuse it with orthodoxy.

_/|\_
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Caodemarte on Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:13 am

Dan74 wrote:
Bokki, one can say many things about Rev. Jundo, but he is not an orthodox teacher. By his own admission, he is a rebel and a reformer. His teacher, Gudo Nishijima, was somewhat of an outsider in Zen circles and Rev Jundo went much further, I believe. But he can correct me.

You may well like his message, but don't confuse it with orthodoxy.

_/|\_



Wouldn't this be almost the definition of orthodox Buddhism?

Jundo and the Dharma don't need defending by the likes of me, but I have never seem anything that would imply any kind of unorthodox teaching of the Dharma, but a clear call for reform of the institutions which have gone so far astray. Clearly Zen institutions need reform and rebels and outsiders as well as insiders.

In any case, if I read the orthodox suttas correctly the really important questions in Buddhism must always be "Is it true? Is it useful?" Not "Is it orthodox?" so my discussion of this may sound rather trivial!
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Dan74 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:34 am

Caodemarte, do you mean that being a rebel and a reformer is the definition of orthodoxy in Buddhism?

As to your other remarks, bokki said that Rev Jundo was orthodox. In my reading of Rev Jundo over the years, his contention that Buddhism and Zen is full of prescientific and hagiographic teachings such as rebirth, 'unrealistic' characteristics of enlightenment, etc place him in my view in decidedly unorthodox camp along with Stephen Batchelor and the like. Whether useful or not is another conversation, but IMO it is important to be clear about this point.

_/|\_
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby jundo on Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:54 am

Ha! Whether the Buddha was an "orthodox" Buddhist is a good question! Would he recognize much of anything about Buddhism and what passes for "orthodoxy" these days? Perhaps he would join me on the "hagiography" bandwagon when seeing what he looks like in gold dipped statues. Would he know how to chant the Heart Sutra, would he have ever read the Lotus Sutra? Would he know what is a Mandala or a Koan? The married priests of Japan, the Amida Buddhas of China ... would we have to explain to him what is a "Guanyin"?

Who since the Buddha has been an "orthodox" anything, and would we even have Mahayana Buddhism in all its magnificent flavors if folks were "orthodox"? Would there be "Zen"?

Would the Buddha have been an "orthodox" Buddhist. Better said, would the "Buddha" have been an orthodox "Buddha" if we separate the likely realities of the man from all the stories and words stuffed in his mouth by later inspired authors, would he recognize himself?

Anyway, who was he? How can we possibly know for all the legends piled on and, even if we did find the "essential original Buddha", would any of us give up the imaginary versions of Buddha and Buddhism that we bow down to now? Is not the "essential original Buddha" the "Buddha" we find here and now, in our Koan and where we Sit, not just some ashes in an old Indian Stupa?

If Buddhism is defined as belief in the Three Marks of Impermanence, Dukkha (and its cure) and Non-self, I am as orthodox as can be. If it is rejecting a lot of the add-ons to Buddhism over the centuries, I might be closer to the "original" than the Dalai Lama or Hakuin or Dogen or Hsuan Hua.

Who knows?

I don't know and I don't care, for there is a place for all ... each "orthodox" unto thine own self and their personal vision of True Buddha. Let us honor all.

Gassho, J

SatToday, the most "orthodox" act of all.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Dan74 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:11 pm

jundo wrote:Ha! Whether the Buddha was an "orthodox" Buddhist is a good question! Would he recognize much of anything about Buddhism and what passes for "orthodoxy" these days? Perhaps he would join me on the "hagiography" bandwagon when seeing what he looks like in gold dipped statues. Would he know how to chant the Heart Sutra, would he have ever read the Lotus Sutra? Would he know what is a Mandala or a Koan? The married priests of Japan, the Amida Buddhas of China ... would we have to explain to him what is a "Guanyin"?

Who since the Buddha has been an "orthodox" anything, and would we even have Mahayana Buddhism in all its magnificent flavors if folks were "orthodox"? Would there be "Zen"?

Would the Buddha have been an "orthodox" Buddhist. Better said, would the "Buddha" have been an orthodox "Buddha" if we separate the likely realities of the man from all the stories and words stuffed in his mouth by later inspired authors, would he recognize himself?

Anyway, who was he? How can we possibly know for all the legends piled on and, even if we did find the "essential original Buddha", would any of us give up the imaginary versions of Buddha and Buddhism that we bow down to now? Is not the "essential original Buddha" the "Buddha" we find here an now, not some ashes in an old Indian Stupa?

If Buddhism is defined as belief in the Three Marks of Impermanence, Dukkha (and its cure) and Non-self, I am as orthodox as can be. If it is rejecting a lot of the add-ons to Buddhism over the centuries, I might be closer to the "original" than the Dalai Lama or Hakuin or Dogen or Hsuan Hua.

Who knows?

I don't know and I don't care, for there is a place for all ... each "orthodox" unto thine own self and their personal vision of True Buddha. I honor all.

Gassho, J

SatToday, the most "orthodox" act of all.


Rev Jundo, you put your cases forward well. Still, there are many teachers today who do teach rebirth, the importance of 'kensho' leading to unexcelled perfect enlighenment from which 'one' does not retrogress, and a framework of the world which is not circumscribed by the current materialistic understanding. I hope such teachers also make their case.

_/|\_
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby jundo on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:08 pm

Hi Dan,

There is no case to make. Such teacher may be mistaken by my eyes. I may be mistaken in their eyes.

In a Buddha's Eye, there is no mistake from the start.

Those teachers are not "orthodox." I am not "orthodox"?

But what is the Orthodoxy right through all human "orthodox" and "heterodox"? A Koan.

Heck, what is neither reborn nor not reborn right through all lives? Neither materialistic nor spiritual nor ... from such there is no "regression" for there is never the slightest need for "progression". :daisy: Thus but Kensho.

Now, pay your taxes and pull some summer weeds. But Kensho.

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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Dan74 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:38 pm

What indeed.

Nevertheless distinctions are useful sometimes. And when needing a screwdriver, a hammer won't do. Not to even go to powertools.

_/|\_
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby jundo on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:49 pm

Dan74 wrote:What indeed.

Nevertheless distinctions are useful sometimes. And when needing a screwdriver, a hammer won't do. Not to even go to powertools.

_/|\_
Dan


Which is more "orthodox"? The hammer or the screwdriver?

I would simply say that one is better for nails, one is better for screws. Perhaps both helpful to build the Buddha House. And then, rebirth realized as an illusion, a dream ...

"Through the round of many births I roamed without reward, without rest, seeking the house-builder. Painful is birth again & again. House-builder, you're seen! You will not build a house again. All your rafters broken, the ridge pole destroyed, gone to the Unformed, the mind has come to the end of craving." — Dhammapada, 11


Another Koan.

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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Caodemarte on Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:58 pm

Dan74 wrote:Caodemarte, do you mean that being a rebel and a reformer is the definition of orthodoxy in Buddhism?

As to your other remarks, bokki said that Rev Jundo was orthodox. In my reading of Rev Jundo over the years, his contention that Buddhism and Zen is full of prescientific and hagiographic teachings such as rebirth, 'unrealistic' characteristics of enlightenment, etc. place him in my view in decidedly unorthodox camp along with Stephen Batchelor and the like. Whether useful or not is another conversation, but IMO it is important to be clear about this point.

_/|\_



It is funny because this is decidedly orthodox from my point of view (blind men and the elephant story once again). Leaving Jundo out of this, traditional teachers (fully ensconced and recognized in their tradition as very orthodox) who have addressed this sort of thing whom I have met (and many, like the Dalai Lama whom I have read), have said Buddhism has accreted a lot of superstition and even nonsense over the years that should be cleaned up. There are mistakes, blunders, and corruption in Buddhist institutions as in all long-lasting human institutions and need reform. When people take anything in a literalist way all the life and truth is choked out it. All firmly held beliefs are at best temporary expedients that become anchors or are abused as rationalizations.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Zen Buddhism

Postby Dan74 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:06 pm

jundo wrote:
Dan74 wrote:What indeed.

Nevertheless distinctions are useful sometimes. And when needing a screwdriver, a hammer won't do. Not to even go to powertools.

_/|\_
Dan


Which is more "orthodox"? The hammer or the screwdriver?

I would simply say that one is better for nails, one is better for screws. Perhaps both helpful to build the Buddha House. And then, rebirth realized as an illusion, a dream ...

"Through the round of many births I roamed without reward, without rest, seeking the house-builder. Painful is birth again & again. House-builder, you're seen! You will not build a house again. All your rafters broken, the ridge pole destroyed, gone to the Unformed, the mind has come to the end of craving." — Dhammapada, 11


Another Koan.

Gassho, J

You make these koans up on the fly, Rev!

Yes, it's all good, all unreal which is what makes it real, etc etc. I know the tune well.

People can search through your post history and decide if this is the tune they want to dance to or not.

For my part, the two Jundos whom I've encountered in these pages (as an early member and mod here and admin at DW) - one dispensing absolute platitudes with a flourish of a Sufi poet and another firing off snarky passive-aggressive missives and threats, leave the Middle Way sadly wanting. No doubt the real Jundo who weeds and changes nappies has much more substance than comes across to me. My apologies to him and an offer of a friendly beer, should our paths in the real world ever cross.

_/|\_
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