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What is the view?

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What is the view?

Postby [james] on Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:52 am

What is the view of samsara from nirvana?
For example, 'Samsara and Nirvana are not two'.
Is that the view of samsara or the other fellow?

It is said that in the awakened state there is no view. Can anyone describe that?
Of course that may be creating a view of that which has no view. Or would it?

What is the Right View of the Eightfold Noble Path as it is described in zen practice?
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Re: What is the view?

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:43 am

Quoting, and replying some:

[james] wrote:What is the view of samsara from nirvana?

Avoidable-suffering (given correct teaching and practice).

And for the Bodhisattva, this is the impetus to help to rescue beings (or at least leave them happy).

[james] wrote:For example, 'Samsara and Nirvana are not two'.
Is that the view of samsara or the other fellow?

Not clear on the question. Can you re-phrase? (esp. about "other fellow": do you mean "Nirvana"?).

[james] wrote:It is said that in the awakened state there is no view. Can anyone describe that?

No motion of mind in daily, walking-around, life. No discrete discursive thoughts, and no possibility to hold any notions of any kind in mind, due to lack of any mind. No sense of a self, nor of a mind at all. Hence, no view of any kind whatsoever. Only true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, not vexations. Well, this is for the period of time for which awakening lasts, which can be weeks and months, etc., but is usually not permanent. One may think that one need not practice during this period, but one had better. And, indeed, one tends to, naturally, just as one sleeps and eats.

Han Shan and Hakuin write about multiple awakenings (over half a dozen apiece) in their autobiographies.

[james] wrote:Of course that may be creating a view of that which has no view. Or would it?

No mind, no view.

[james] wrote:What is the Right View of the Eightfold Noble Path as it is described in zen practice?

One needn't know anything about it in order to practice correctly and to awaken.

(one intuits it afresh, by experience [along with most of the "rest" of Buddhadharma], ...quite as the Buddha did).

Practicing with a teacher and sangha will ensure correct practice over time. I'd say doctrinal study is optional; too much of it creates a front-loading which can be distracting from more efficacious work. Most "progress" comes through the body, not through doctrine, nor through perusal or completing of checklists. Again, once, (1.) the correct teaching of methods, and, (2.) their practice, are underway, teacher and sangha are sine qua non for accomplishment or simple eventuation of the third pillar, (3.) Awakening.

Zen Buddhism is radical, yet is "a Buddhism". Some argue it is NOT a Buddhism, and that's an interesting -- but long -- discussion.

--Joe
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Re: What is the view?

Postby macdougdoug on Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:46 am

[james] wrote:What is the view of samsara from nirvana?
For example, 'Samsara and Nirvana are not two'.
Is that the view of samsara or the other fellow?

It is said that in the awakened state there is no view. Can anyone describe that?
Of course that may be creating a view of that which has no view. Or would it?



Samsara and Nirvana are both views.
In Samsara I have my views, which of course means conflict; in Nirvana there is no difference between the viewer and whatever arises, and no judgement of whatever arises.

The danger of creating a view occurs later on when one looks back and analyses what was happening.
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Re: What is the view?

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:17 pm

.
Let's see...; let's have a look:

The 'Eightfold Path' list of assets on the path begins with a first item, (1.):

"Right View".

Comments?
_____________________________

I'd say that "Right" means "Skillful".

And I'd say that Right View is a (temporary and pragmatic) expedient during various stages of practice.

At awakening, Views -- however "right", or skillful -- all disappear, and cannot be grasped. Instead, what then comes to guide one's behavior are just two arisings: true, natural Wisdom (prajña), and true, natural Compassion (karuna), whose spontaneous arisings are prompted by circumstances, and arise seamlessly, without delay or hesitation, in response to circumstances just as circumstances present themselves in every-day life.

--Joe
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Re: What is the view?

Postby lobster on Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:22 am

[james] wrote:What is the view of samsara from nirvana?
For example, 'Samsara and Nirvana are not two'.
Is that the view of samsara or the other fellow?

It is said that in the awakened state there is no view. Can anyone describe that?


:heya:

First there is realisation, then no-realisation, then no-know-no-how. :dance:

Samsara are not-One or three and certainly not two. In other Heart Sutra words:
OM GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA
Gone gone, gone beyond, gone altogether beyond, O Yeah!, Yi ha! :daisy:
:hugs:
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Re: What is the view?

Postby TigerDuck on Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:55 am

[james] wrote:What is the view of samsara from nirvana?
For example, 'Samsara and Nirvana are not two'.
Is that the view of samsara or the other fellow?

It is said that in the awakened state there is no view. Can anyone describe that?
Of course that may be creating a view of that which has no view. Or would it?

What is the Right View of the Eightfold Noble Path as it is described in zen practice?


US and Iraq are not two, they are simply part of earth where wind also blow, trees also grow.
If we see US and Iraq from the convention of UN borders, we can indeed separate them as 2 different thing. But this is just an intellectual separation/intellectual object. It exists only as long as you and me still want to agree on this convention.

Let's take South China Sea, where is the actual border? In reality it doesn't have a border. China has its own definition of border, UN has its own definition of border. Because reality has no border, people make a border based on agreement. If they agree, they don't fight, if don't agree, they fight to death.

This earth has no border of countries no matter how human beings want to claim this is my border, that is your border.

Imagine several people draw boundary with pen on your body, and claim this part of your body is A's territory, another part is B's territory, another part is C's territory, etc. Although these various people with their ego or intellect divide you into multiple boundaries, how real is this boundary to you?

Samsara and nirvana can be an useful intellectual concept. But from the point of view of reality, is there such thing called samsara or nirvana?
Countries can be quite useful for human life, but again, from the point of view of earth, is there a division of territory actually?

Samsara and nirvana are not location.
It is a state of mind or state of realization.

For those who do not realize the emptiness of reality, there is nirvana and samsara.
For those who realize the emptiness of reality, there is no nirvana and no samsara.

Just like people who realize country's boundary is actually human-made agreement, he can see that although this earth is divided into many countries, actually earth itself doesn't have countries. It is an intellectual division, not reality division.

Samsara and nirvana are also only intellectual division, not reality division.

In reality, every dot in this universe has a same nature.
The true nature of Buddha and the nature of your smelly shit is exactly same.

The breakthrough of whether someone can see there is this thing called nirvana or samsara is his realization on this true nature of reality itself.

Every thing is self-liberated, self-clearing. At every moment, every display is self-destructive.

Every display we see, sound we hear, taste we eat, etc., is always space-clean display like blowing wind without a single dust.
Whether this is clear to us or not, actually this is where someone has realized the essence of buddhism or not.

We shouldn't be fooled by the display, thinking these display have something inside, has a dust inside.
We need to see how these displays work actually. From how it works, we can see it is actually space like, always clear.

In buddhist context, it is said dependent arising = emptiness. They are just 2 different vocab to actually say the same nature.

Because reality is always space clear due to everlasting changing, it doesn't content any single thing left to be explained. No dust. There is nothing there you can pin point to explain.

He is free from 'View' and 'No View'.

If you buy a crystal clear drinking water,
View is like a sticker label stating this water is pure
No view is like a sticker label stating this water has no impurities.

Free from "view' and 'no view' is when you just see the pure water without any sticker.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: What is the view?

Postby [james] on Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:05 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:.
Let's see...; let's have a look:

The 'Eightfold Path' list of assets on the path begins with a first item, (1.):

"Right View".

Comments?
_____________________________

I'd say that "Right" means "Skillful".

And I'd say that Right View is a (temporary and pragmatic) expedient during various stages of practice.

At awakening, Views -- however "right", or skillful -- all disappear, and cannot be grasped. Instead, what then comes to guide one's behavior are just two arisings: true, natural Wisdom (prajña), and true, natural Compassion (karuna), whose spontaneous arisings are prompted by circumstances, and arise seamlessly, without delay or hesitation, in response to circumstances just as circumstances present themselves in every-day life.

--Joe


If 'view' is a word referring to how we describe and construct our understanding of 'this' and Awakening/realization is the letting go of view, Right View is view that is conducive to awakening. We, those of us who remain in ignorance, may refer to Right View as guidance in investigating this ignorance with a growing measure of equanimity and wisdom.
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Re: What is the view?

Postby [james] on Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:19 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
[james] wrote:It is said that in the awakened state there is no view. Can anyone describe that?

No motion of mind in daily, walking-around, life. No discrete discursive thoughts, and no possibility to hold any notions of any kind in mind, due to lack of any mind. No sense of a self, nor of a mind at all. Hence, no view of any kind whatsoever. Only true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, not vexations. Well, this is for the period of time for which awakening lasts, which can be weeks and months, etc., but is usually not permanent. One may think that one need not practice during this period, but one had better. And, indeed, one tends to, naturally, just as one sleeps and eats.


So somehow ignorance seeps back into awakening. How is that? Samsara, Nirvana ... no fixed boundary?
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Re: What is the view?

Postby [james] on Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:35 pm

TigerDuck wrote:Samsara and nirvana can be an useful intellectual concept. But from the point of view of reality, is there such thing called samsara or nirvana?
Countries can be quite useful for human life, but again, from the point of view of earth, is there a division of territory actually?

Samsara and nirvana are not location.
It is a state of mind or state of realization.

For those who do not realize the emptiness of reality, there is nirvana and samsara.
For those who realize the emptiness of reality, there is no nirvana and no samsara.


As reality includes intellectual concepts then samsara and nirvana, as concepts, affect some of our lives as surely as international borders and anything else we encounter daily. So yes, useful. How do we make best use of them?

Samsara/Nirvana are a state of mind. Realization is a state of mind.

Realizing the emptiness of reality, there is no nothing and yet there is.
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Re: What is the view?

Postby TigerDuck on Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:36 pm

If we understand the nature of reality, we can make use whatever reality offers to us without being fooled by our ignorance.

As the nature of reality is free, we can use anything yet we can be free of them because their nature is free.

For example:
Those who do not know the nature of movie, will cry unnecessarily seeing sad event in the cinema
Those who do not know the nature of daily life is exactly same with the nature of movie, will cry when seeing sad thing happen.

Those who know the nature of movie as display of light, will be relaxed whatever the event of the movie shows.
Those who know the nature of life is exactly same with movie, will also be relaxed with whatever events occur to him/her.

And this understanding of the nature of reality is indeed the only true way for the true happiness.

Same thing happens to ignorant beings and enlightened beings, but their reaction or their state of happiness is completely different.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: What is the view?

Postby macdougdoug on Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:28 pm

[james] wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
[james] wrote:It is said that in the awakened state there is no view. Can anyone describe that?

No motion of mind in daily, walking-around, life. No discrete discursive thoughts, and no possibility to hold any notions of any kind in mind, due to lack of any mind. No sense of a self, nor of a mind at all. Hence, no view of any kind whatsoever. Only true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, not vexations. Well, this is for the period of time for which awakening lasts, which can be weeks and months, etc., but is usually not permanent. One may think that one need not practice during this period, but one had better. And, indeed, one tends to, naturally, just as one sleeps and eats.


So somehow ignorance seeps back into awakening. How is that? Samsara, Nirvana ... no fixed boundary?


Because we are humans. Humans have evolved to be as we are now.
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Re: What is the view?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:23 pm

James,

[james] wrote:If 'view' is a word referring to how we describe and construct our understanding of 'this' and Awakening/realization is the letting go of view, Right View is view that is conducive to awakening. We, those of us who remain in ignorance, may refer to Right View as guidance in investigating this ignorance with a growing measure of equanimity and wisdom.

I'd say, yes!, to what you write above: "Awakening/realization is the letting go of view, Right View is view that is conducive to awakening."

But please allow a small (or large) point, however: the "letting go" of view -- 'operationally' -- is not a letting-go. I.e., it is not an act of choice, nor of effort, nor of willing, nor of surrender. It is sudden, and happens suddenly, at the same moment as awakening happens, and persists for the time that awakening persists, weeks, months, etc. This is my experience, and my description; no one else has described their experience to my face as different from this ordinary way, neither in-person nor in writing. I'd be interested to learn of varieties of exceptions which are unlike this sudden and quite natural dissolution and disappearance.

You have a big fish on the line, and suddenly it unhooks itself and it's ...gone! Surprise! Did you "let it go"? (Nope). ;)

Except, ...there is no disappointment. There is surprise, joy, and a clapping of hands, an exhalation of laughter, and maybe a looking around in astonishment, nothing moving, nothing opposing us; all there is, is freedom. And nothing, no activity, scares this state or new condition away, no matter what we do. We can get right up and do what comes next, do what's needed, in total freedom, surrounded by strange and solemn beauty, weightless ourselves, and with everything open to us, and shining, for weeks or months. This is better than any "meditation" states, and there are no drifting multi-colored Samadhi clouds, everything is clear, and emitting light, itself. There's no center of the visual-field, and it's impossible to "stare" at anything, nor exclude anything in the field of view. Yet, sit for 15 seconds on a park bench, and all takes on a golden, solemn, light; a new sort of Samadhi in everyday-life, in the midst of activity (in New York City, for example).

Oops, a paragraph "off-topic", I think.

--Joe
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Re: What is the view?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:16 pm

J.,

[james] wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
[james] wrote:It is said that in the awakened state there is no view. Can anyone describe that?

No motion of mind in daily, walking-around, life. No discrete discursive thoughts, and no possibility to hold any notions of any kind in mind, due to lack of any mind. No sense of a self, nor of a mind at all. Hence, no view of any kind whatsoever. Only true Wisdom and true Compassion arise, not vexations. Well, this is for the period of time for which awakening lasts, which can be weeks and months, etc., but is usually not permanent. One may think that one need not practice during this period, but one had better. And, indeed, one tends to, naturally, just as one sleeps and eats.

So somehow ignorance seeps back into awakening. How is that? Samsara, Nirvana ... no fixed boundary?

Thanks, James.

Yes. As you say, and see, "...ignorance seeps back into awakening". I can tell you how it happened for me, especially the first time (after about 10 weeks). I was so free and efficient and weightless, I was taking-on more projects, and was still able to handle the work fine, but working about 80 hours per week. And, I think I was neglecting certain supporting practices I'd been practicing for years before I ever even met my teacher, especially the running (2 1/2 miles per day, for years, at the time), and yoga practice 3 times per day, plus hours of sitting. So -- as I feel it -- the body was not able to support the awakened condition, due to my neglect, and my feeling like a sort of lucky superman who could just take on more and more, naturally. Well, I was 27 years old, too, at the time. ;)

This is one reason why I always mention that physical-practice is crucial, and suggest that practitioners do not neglect it.

It's also the reason that I have taught yoga since 1980, a Buddhist yoga, I call it, and the self-massage and Ch'an exercises of Ch'an Master Sheng Yen (who taught them to us, and taught us to teach them, if we promised to teach them).

I'd say, too, that certain purifications are necessary before one can practice quite correctly, even if one has practiced for years. And, at the right time, a large dollop of good luck helps.

I think, in general, that someone who awakens is so ready and so naturally inclined without question to join and help others (although "others" don't seem "other") that we can eventually to a harmful extent neglect "ourselves", in some aspects of self-care and maintenance. I think I did that, the first time. Good! I returned to samsara, but with a lesser load (of attachment and ignorance) than before, and ...I knew the way 'out' again. This led to greater empathy, even though it was not the true-Compassion that reigned only in the awakened state; and, it was not guided by true-Wisdom. Oh, well! But at least one knew the way "back", if one wanted to practice sufficiently, and correctly.

But I had to leave the country for some years to carry out research, and all was new and wondrous in the new place, and the research was ground-breaking and thrilling. It took a while to get back to intensive practice, especially with no contact with my teacher and sangha during those years away, in isolation on an observatory mountain in the Chilean Andes.

Over the years, things have worked out, even with different teachers and different sanghas. I have no complaints, except about myself.

Again, I count among the reasons of returning to samsara at times as:

    insufficient physical practice (of appropriate types)
    taking-on additional jobs (not even considering saying "no")
    allowing care in dietary matters to slip
    insufficient contact with teacher and sangha
    ...all leading to the flame beneath the steam-boiler to burn too low, or throwing water on the fuel in the fire-box

The care-and-feeding of the awakened state is as important as in the the run-up to it, maybe more so, if one wants to continue in a career as a bodhisattva. Without the awakened condition in full-bloom, one can and does make many mistakes, because true-Wisdom and true-Compassion are not operating, then, and one's behavior, if ever appropriate, is only fittingly appropriate by rare accident.

--Joe
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Re: What is the view?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:23 pm

mdd,

macdougdoug wrote:
james wrote:So somehow ignorance seeps back into awakening. How is that? Samsara, Nirvana ... no fixed boundary?

Because we are humans. Humans have evolved to be as we are now.

I think that's a great answer, and a lot shorter than mine. :heya:

Or, Hmm, actually, I might answer instead:

    'Because we are humans, and we do not now live as we have evolved to live'.
(I think that may really be it!).

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: What is the view?

Postby [james] on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:56 pm

TigerDuck wrote:If we understand the nature of reality, we can make use whatever reality offers to us without being fooled by our ignorance.

( .... )

And this understanding of the nature of reality is indeed the only true way for the true happiness.

Same thing happens to ignorant beings and enlightened beings, but their reaction or their state of happiness is completely different.


My hope is that our ignorance can somehow be of more use than merely to fool us. Is there a wisdom aspect to ignorance or does one simply displace the other? Surely the nature of reality holds what we call ignorance and wisdom in balance ... one is as pertinent as the other. So, as most of us humans are in a condition of ignorance regarding the nature of reality, how do we make best use of the tool we have, ignorance, to come out of that ignorance and to do so in a manner that acknowledges the value of that tool. What is the view on ignorance in Right View?
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Re: What is the view?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:58 pm

[james] wrote:If 'view' is a word referring to how we describe and construct our understanding of 'this' and Awakening/realization is the letting go of view, Right View is view that is conducive to awakening.

Oh, James, I left out that I'd say, too, that Right View is also View of the Path. We need not construct a metaphysics by which to regard Samsara or Awakening, and prob. better if we do not (just as Zen Buddhist practitioners do not, usually).

Right-View of the Path would be trust (Faith) that the Buddha is not lying to us, and Right View of the Path would also be faith and trust in the Eightfold Path, trust and faith that the Paramitas are also honestly identified and incorporated in prescribed practice as pragmatically helpful, and faith and trust in the Three Treasures of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, and faith and trust in the efficacy of the Buddhist Precepts, as well as faith and trust in one's Buddhist teacher (and sangha).

[james] wrote:We, those of us who remain in ignorance, may refer to Right View as guidance in investigating this ignorance with a growing measure of equanimity and wisdom.

True-Wisdom alone can liberate us. There is no value in remaining in ignorance. But a person who becomes a Bodhisattva by awakening is one who does not leave other beings behind, yet he or she "remains" in samsara, where the suffering beings are to be found.

As Zen Buddhist practitioners (those who are... ), neither do we "investigate this ignorance", as you've put it. Zen Buddhist practice has a different logic than that, and a different way of working. "Investigating" ignorance or even samsara seems to me a more Small Vehicle practice, typically (although some Vajrayadins may carry that out in some schools' practices, I think). Zen Buddhism, we know, is radical in the sense that it does not treat or investigate the "branches", but gets at the root. So it is said, and so I find and found it to be.

But, disclaimer, for All!: if your Zen Buddhist teacher prescribes that you "investigate ignorance", then, by all means consider to do so.

--Joe
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Re: What is the view?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:09 pm

[james] wrote:My hope is that our ignorance can somehow be of more use than merely to fool us. Is there a wisdom aspect to ignorance or does one simply displace the other?

Spoken like a Bodhisattva... .

A Bodhisattva's remembering or recalling the nature of Ignorance and the suffering within Ignorance while the Bodhisattva is awake, can be of help to the Bodhisattva in creating or burnishing Skillful Means in order to help beings.

Ignorance covers (hides) Wisdom, but does not contain it, I'd say.

Our own Ignorance and suffering can be helpful to us by increasing bodhicitta in us, and can thus be a spur to our practicing and awakening.

--Joe
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Re: What is the view?

Postby TigerDuck on Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:42 am

[james] wrote:My hope is that our ignorance can somehow be of more use than merely to fool us. Is there a wisdom aspect to ignorance or does one simply displace the other? Surely the nature of reality holds what we call ignorance and wisdom in balance ... one is as pertinent as the other. So, as most of us humans are in a condition of ignorance regarding the nature of reality, how do we make best use of the tool we have, ignorance, to come out of that ignorance and to do so in a manner that acknowledges the value of that tool. What is the view on ignorance in Right View?


If you want to know about that, you will come to the teaching of 5 buddhas.

Deity --- Delusion --- Enlightened Mind
Vairochana --- ignorance, delusion --- All-encompassing Dharmadatu Wisdom
Akshobhya --- anger, hatred --- Mirror-like Wisdom
Ratnasambhava --- pride, miserliness --- Wisdom of Equality
Amitabha --- desire, lust --- Discriminating Wisdom
Amogasiddhi --- jealousy, fear --- All-accomplishing Wisdom

In its unrealized nature, ignorance is actually hidden wisdom. But as long as this hidden wisdom is not made known, it cannot be beneficial.

Another example:
Pride. Why pride is related with Wisdom of Equality?
Pride is I am more important than you. You and me are not equal. Because of this power of pride, that power prevent you to be equal with others.
However, once you realize the nature of reality, it is actually this power of pride that eventually takes care of you not to side track to your previous state again.
You become because of my pride, I will never ever give way to my old habit to come back again, and i am pride to be always straight for example.
You are pride to be correct, to be straight.

It is all same with other 4 delusions.
For example: Ignorance.
Delusion is not knowing, but once you turn this down, the opposite is you know the nature of reality.
Once this is unlock, its hidden power all appear to you.
The power of ignorance covers everything. This power now take care of you not to know reality. It take care of you not to learn new thing. But actually, it is that same power of ignorance that once it is unlock, that power will take care of you to reject delusion.

Those who have achieved path of seeing, that person cannot come back to become ordinary again.
In Theravada, those who have achieved "stream-enterer' or sotaphana, cannot make a u-turn to become ordinary again. He will become arahant within 7 life times (can be less, but can't be more).

There are no buddhas who can u-turn to become ignorant again. One of the reasons is actually because of the power of ignorance itself that actually makes this happen.

Every delusion is like a sword.
In its deluded state, the power of that sword cuts through all goodness.
But, once it is unlock, it is that same power that now cut through the opposite, all delusions.

It is like an evil kung fu master, his power is so scary.
But, imagine this evil eventually realize reality.
It is this same kung fu skill that become so powerful to kill the opposite.

The power is the same, but where they head to is different.

Through nonconceptuality, he is immovable.

[Nagarjuna]
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Re: What is the view?

Postby [james] on Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:59 am

There is a teaching for everything, it seems.
My sincere thanks to you TigerDuck.
My thanks to you as well Desert Joe.
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[james]
 
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Re: What is the view?

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:46 am

James,

[james] wrote:There is a teaching for everything, it seems.
My sincere thanks to you TigerDuck.
My thanks to you as well Desert Joe.

I won't and don't ever pull any punches. I walk a line, though.

I only tell what I know. I hope not sometimes too much.

I hope we continue to have a great history here (even before it becomes History).

Thanks!, Michael, and moderators; and Carol; and Mr. Gregory Wonderwheel. And all members.

Lurkers!, why not become members. Be great to hear from you, and about you.

Strong practice, all o' y'all,

--Joe
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Location: southern Arizona, USA

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