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The bodhisattva.

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Re: The bodhisattva.

Postby A Philosopher on Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:30 pm

jundo wrote:So, what is different from an Arhat?

Buddhist religious sectarian politics mostly, if you ask me.


Deep bow for stating it openly and so succintly!


PS - Traditional Chinese-Japanese Kanji expressions are very "short hand" and one needs to fill in the details in one's heart. The original in Japanese/Chinese is literally the following (maybe one of the Chinese translators like Mr. Wonderwheel would have more to offer):

眾 生 無 邊 誓願 度 masses-creatures-without-limit-vow-rescue (but I understand 度 as actually paramita/perfection/ferry over, thus "rescue" in that way)

Perhaps the Robert Aitken quote mentioned is from here, although I don't see him saying exactly "open to the needs and suffering". However, he could have said that somewhere, and it would be perfectly fine to read that into the "short hand". Not wrong at all and sounds lovely in fact:

http://integral-options.blogspot.jp/201 ... -vows.html


I too hope that others will help with / contribute to a translation!
Yes, a very lovely expression! I like it because it removes some mysteries.
But not all mysteries -- this openness may be boundless!

_/|\_
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Re: The bodhisattva.

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:09 pm

TTT wrote:There seems to be a misunderstandin.
I am reading on the net just now, thet the Arhat (sanskrit) "one who is worthy" or "perfect person" means that a person, or someone, who has reached nirvana is an Arhat. The bodhisattva is a mahayana teaching, he or she, the bodhisattva can not fall back from nirvana when reached.

You seem to be new to this, so just be careful to not jump to conclusions or take the distinctions too literally.
The term Arhat is for the fully achieved practitioner of the Shravaka vehicle.
The term Pratyekabuddha is for the fully achieved practitioner of the Pratyekabuddha vehicle.
The term Bodhisattva is for the practitioner of either the Bodhisattva vehicle or the Buddha vehicle, depending on usage, who may be fully achieved or not. In the Bodhisattva vehicle there are ten stages or stations of practice and the term applies to all at any station. For example, the stage or station of not falling back is the seventh.
The term Buddha Vehicle refers to the One Vehicle while the Shravaka, Pratyekavuddha, and Bodhisattva vehicles refer to the Three Vehicles.
The nirvana of the Arhat is the liberation from dukkha.
The nirvana of the Bodhisattva vehicle is the liberation from dukkha and the realization of the emptiness of self/person and things/dharmas.
The nirvana of the One Buddha Vehicle is the nirvana without remainder, that is the nirvana with nothing left out, the complete non-separation of nirvana and samsara, with no lingering trace of either samsara or nirvana.

_/|\_
Gregory
Why you do not understand is because the three carts were provisional for former times, and because the One Vehicle is true for the present time. ~ Zen Master 6th Ancestor Huineng
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Re: The bodhisattva.

Postby Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:51 pm

A Philosopher wrote:So, here is my question. Long time ago, I read somewhere Roshi Aitken's exchange with someone in which he comments on the first vow. Roshi observed that a more exact translation of the original (probably in Sanskrit, but I am not sure) would read (roughly) like this: I vow to be open to needs and suffering of all sentient beings. I cannot find this exchange and do not know what original text is referred to by Roshi Aitken.

Could someone, please, illuminate these issues? Thank you so much!


Aitken was great at presenting the meaning in English but he was not particularly rigorous in translation.
In the Chinese format, The Four Great Vows are structured in a 4 x 4 arrangement.
Each of the four lines has four sections:
四弘誓願

衆生----無邊----誓願----度
煩惱----無盡----誓願----斷
法門----無量----誓願----學
佛道----無上----誓願----成

The first two characters designate the subject of the intent, the target of the vow.
The next two characters all begin with 無/wu/mu/not and indicate that we are ready and prepared to make the vow with a nondual intention.
The next two characters are the same in each line and state our willing determination and resolve to make the vow.
The last single character states the avowed action to be taken in relation to the target of the vow.

四.... 弘..........................誓願
four great/broad/expansive vows/oath-willingly

衆生.........................無邊............. 誓願......... 度
many/multitude beings without limiting vow willingly to carry across
煩惱............................... 無盡.................. 誓願 .......... 斷
troubles/afflictions/vexations without exhausting vow willingly to sever/cut off
法門.................... 無量 ............................. 誓願 ........ 學
Dharma gates/doors without counting/numbering vow willingly to study/learn
佛道 ......... 無上................. 誓願 .......... 成
Buddha Way without surpassing vow willingly to complete/achieve/become

Every time I look at it I can find a new way to translate it.
Here's one I use:

I willingly vow to carry across the unlimited multitude of beings,
I willingly vow to cut off the inexhaustible vexations,
I willingly vow to learn the countless Dharma gates,
I willingly vow to complete the unsurpassed Buddha Way.

So I have no idea how in the first line Aitken could get "to be open to needs and suffering" out of 度 "to carry across." I imagine he was saying that in order to be able to carry across the many sentient beings that we must be open to their needs and suffering. That is the way of the Bodhisattva.

_/|\_
Gregory
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Re: The bodhisattva.

Postby TTT on Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:00 pm

Thanks for making it a bit clear Gregory Wonderwheel. May i copy your post?
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Re: The bodhisattva.

Postby TTT on Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:18 pm

jundo wrote:
TTT wrote:Hello.

What is it to be a bodhisattva and how does one become one?

To contrast with the arhat, how is an arhat and how does one become that?

What is the differens between the two categorys?

Is it importent differens?


I like stepping into questions and other sticky stuff, so let me try ...

If any being acts to rescue sentient beings by helping those "sentient beings" realize that there are no "sentient beings" in need of rescue all along ... or if someone acts to rescue sentient beings in a more worldly sense by offering food, shelter and comfort (although perhaps this portion is a more modern interpretation) ... and if someone seeks to learn and put into Practice the Buddhist Teachings to end delusion (doing so even if endless tasks) ... then they are acting as a Bodhisattva.

There are also "Great Bodhisattvas" such as Kannon or Jizo who, although likely paradigms and symbols which are creations of the human religious imagination rather then actual personages residing somewhere, stand as symbols for the ideal and best of the above human qualities. In fact, although perhaps just symbolic, they are also as real as real can be when human beings act to bring to life their qualities of Wisdom and Compassion (for example, Kannon becomes real when your human hands reach out in aid, thus becoming yourself two of the 1000 hands of Kannon, who then resides right in your heart and hands and becomes real in the world through you.)

All are Buddha, by the way, as are you me and the other guy. Many a Bodhisattva may know that there are no "sentient beings" in need of rescue, no me and you, no fill or lack, a realm beyond birth and death, war and peace. Nonetheless, they choose to keep on working in this Samsaric world of "me and you" to aid those in lack, comfort those in grief, bring peace. They do so even as they know this world as something of a dream.

So, what is different from an Arhat?

Buddhist religious sectarian politics mostly, if you ask me.

Supposedly, by many traditional Mahayana accounts, the Arhats were those who followed the so-called "lesser" teachings of earlier Buddhism and were allegedly more "out for themselves." The so-called "lesser" teachings were said to be the Buddha''s "pulling an Upaya fast one" for people not equipped to handle the truth of the "Great Vehicle" (who are often depicted in the religious propagandic portions of Mahayana Sutras as "amazed" and "dumbfounded" when they hear the Mahayana message). Maybe there is more a feeling too that early Buddhist "Nirvana" was meant as an extinguishing and escape from the wheel of rebirth, while the Mahayana message is more one of transcendence and realization that there is no need for "escape" for we are already "escapted" to the eye which can pierce delusion, that one is free right here all along by seeing through Samsara and not falling into its hungry traps.

Beyond that, I wouldn't worry much about differences in name. If you ask me, even a Christian, Muslim, charitable Atheist, space alien or anyone can manifest qualities of a Bodhisattva in helping sentient beings (although maybe not in the "studying the Buddha way" portion of the formula, such as the teachings of Buddhism that are not shared by some other creeds such as "non-self").

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - Traditional Chinese-Japanese Kanji expressions are very "short hand" and one needs to fill in the details in one's heart. The original in Japanese/Chinese is literally the following (maybe one of the Chinese translators like Mr. Wonderwheel would have more to offer):

眾 生 無 邊 誓願 度 masses-creatures-without-limit-vow-rescue (but I understand 度 as actually paramita/perfection/ferry over, thus "rescue" in that way)

Perhaps the Robert Aitken quote mentioned is from here, although I don't see him saying exactly "open to the needs and suffering". However, he could have said that somewhere, and it would be perfectly fine to read that into the "short hand". Not wrong at all and sounds lovely in fact:

http://integral-options.blogspot.jp/201 ... -vows.html


I got a letter from John Tarrent some years back.
One does that when one give a amount of mony to that teaching. Here he and the other guy Tomas Clary diskribes , the bodhisattva Shamantabadra.
Jag hade fått ett kort av en Zen mästare som heter John Tarrent, som beskrev denna, några år tidigare.
A few years a go i talked to a friend about that. We were in a pub, and went from that place. On the way back to the subway i told her about thet. I remember it was raining.
I thought of triangels, and that she was riding on the elefant, in deminnishing size, and we went on to the subway.

It become clerer to my that a thoght repeats "it self" when i read the post that Jundo made befor, in this thred about "the bodhisattva", and there it is agen.

So people are diferent. you and i are driffrant, thoght, we dont have the samme vision.
I you may se things i one way and you may se it in an other.
And that is somthing that can change. For Kannon, if i have understand it, this cant change.
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Re: The bodhisattva.

Postby organizational on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:07 pm

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