Welcome admin !

It is currently Sun May 28, 2017 7:34 pm
Pathway:  Board index Zen Discussion Forum Beginners Questions Forum

Is it ever ok to lie?

For beginners there is no such thing as a bad question. Feel free to ask any and all questions here. Member's responses should be made within the "beginner's mind" perspective.

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby Nothing on Thu May 12, 2016 10:10 am

fukasetsu wrote:
Nothing wrote:in other the lie is just a habitual response,


Funny in my late teen years I evolved the habit of (or close to) lying compulsively, for instance I would lie to when I was asked (from the pressured ones, like family,lover,work etc) Even if I did what was socially accepted I would say the opposite.

Did you go to work today "yes" (if I didn't) I bet you didn't go to work today "no I didn't" even if I did.

I was under severe scrutiny as a kid and devoloped the habit of saying the opposite, for they would be mad either way, it was crazy but still...I got myself to turn around just in time. People who know me today very closely (who really know me) know I don't like superficial inquiries still, not that I lie about it but I'm known for keeping silent for nonsense questions like "how was your day" "what did you do today" did you do this, did you do that...etc etc :lol2:

Thank you for your honesty. :)

When it comes to those nonsense questions, I still 'lie' sometimes, especially when the questioner is persistent or when I don't want to explain if I say what really is going on :D
Although even those nonsense question sometimes can be asked as a genuine question and not just as social convention.
"There is no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end" - James Hutton
User avatar
Nothing
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Location: Skopje

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby dennis on Thu May 12, 2016 6:38 pm

From somewhere inside me, I think of lies like shadows. It's only when I think of shadows multiplied times hundreds of billions (each day) that this analogy makes me pursue other answers like: what could be the overall effect on our globe...are we all leading our lives in shadow...?

When we tell a lie, generally we want to be believed (???). In my thought this means we want "our" view (which we know to be untrue) to hopefully supplant ("to take the place of another by force or trickery") the realities, ideas and thoughts in another (as in: "They went that-a-way.") for our private intentions, be they "good" or "bad" according to our individual and personal beliefs.

Perhaps at this point the word "skillful" can be discussed (of which I know little about).

When we tell a lie to someone we seek to "bend" their life slightly. Is this a correct action?
Yes, anything we do in communication with others, is bent to "change" things slightly..even if only imparting "neutral" information...this is just the nature of communication. But when we start twisting people's views of the "natural" world, do we not do a disservice to all???? Do I want to do this?

Perhaps at this point the word "skillful" can be discussed (of which I know little about).

These "lies" that arise in us I believe are all caused by fear. Present fear....past childhood fears....fears we have (or mostly) forgotten for one reason or another. But the automatic/survival response remains.

Is lying necessary at times (according to your personal beliefs)? I believe so, although I detest doing so. I attempt corrections:

Q: Do you ever eat sushi?

A: Raw fish...UUCK!!!

A#2: Oh, except for that first time I tried it at that gas station on the corner; it was awful.

You get the idea....by modifying your statement at the time (or possibly later at a more auspicious time) the entire "honesty" situation can be modified, at times, (or not as in the case of escaped prisoners).

I guess, if certain instincts (mindfulness actually) tell me it is better to lie, I will continue to do so with as little "forcing untrue ideas into someone's mind" as possible, for now.

I guess being human with human needs for some social lubricant (not alcohol or other drugs) is just a matter of our wild "human" nature, a part of us always. (Comments please)
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby macdougdoug on Fri May 13, 2016 1:14 pm

"Skillful" in zen usually means: able to communicate despite the confusion. Its not always possible, both parties must be ripe and able to open their hearts. For the seeker this usually means being able to let go of our precious confusion; which is sometimes possible due to fatigue after several days of intense seeking.
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri May 13, 2016 5:06 pm

Lie with dogs, and you'll get up with fleas, they say.

Some say, "Let sleeping dogs lie". I say, let sleeping dogs tell the TRUTH for a change!

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6256
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby dennis on Sun May 15, 2016 7:09 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Picasso wrote that, "Art is a lie that reveals the truth".

--Joe


All manifests are a lie, until you see That very Source of Love's very own play thing.


:) First I smile, then I cry. Nice. :rbow:
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby dennis on Sun May 15, 2016 7:24 pm

macdougdoug wrote:"Skillful" in zen usually means: able to communicate despite the confusion. Its not always possible, both parties must be ripe and able to open their hearts. For the seeker this usually means being able to let go of our precious confusion; which is sometimes possible due to fatigue after several days of intense seeking.


Thank you for this pointer. This also helps me understand I should be working harder at finding a teacher, and reminds me of things I've forgotten/let slide. :Namaste:
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby dennis on Sun May 15, 2016 7:39 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Lie with dogs, and you'll get up with fleas, they say.

Some say, "Let sleeping dogs lie". I say, let sleeping dogs tell the TRUTH for a change!

--Joe


"Lie with dogs, and you'll get up with fleas, they say." I've "gotten up" with so many sorts of fleas through the years....I guess I'm too old to stop now. :)

"Some say, 'Let sleeping dogs lie'." "I say, let sleeping dogs tell the TRUTH for a change!" I think it's too late for them. My wife tells me her Service
Dog "Trucker" is always sleeping in some corner of a room she happens to be working in. But, she tells me, if she raises her head from what she's doing she
always finds him looking at her, and not sleeping at all. I doubt we could effectively change this pattern of outright deceit he shows in his love for her. :)
:rbow:
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu May 19, 2016 2:03 am

Thus I have heard,
that in a sutta or sutra or two,
and in some Buddhist traditions,
dishonesty is the worst infraction of the Precepts by Buddhists. Worse than killing.

I think, too, that in the Jataka Tales -- fictional (?) accounts of the previous lives of the Buddha -- the figure yet to become the Buddha is said to have violated ALL the precepts BUT ONE: he did not lie.

And lying is one of just four infractions that can get you to have to leave the monk-hood if you are a monastic.

The reason I suppose is that someone who lies can get others to accept all sorts of false views, which will seriously drag them down and degrade their lives, and practice.

Yet, it seems always the case that one finds, and must find, compassionate ways of breaking the Precepts, when true Wisdom and true Compassion naturally necessitate this.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6256
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby dennis on Thu May 19, 2016 6:23 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Thus I have heard,
that in a sutta or sutra or two,
and in some Buddhist traditions,
dishonesty is the worst infraction of the Precepts by Buddhists. Worse than killing.

I think, too, that in the Jataka Tales -- fictional (?) accounts of the previous lives of the Buddha -- the figure yet to become the Buddha is said to have violated ALL the precepts BUT ONE: he did not lie.

And lying is one of just four infractions that can get you to have to leave the monk-hood if you are a monastic.

The reason I suppose is that someone who lies can get others to accept all sorts of false views, which will seriously drag them down and degrade their lives, and practice.

Yet, it seems always the case that one finds, and must find, compassionate ways of breaking the Precepts, when true Wisdom and true Compassion naturally necessitate this.

--Joe


The reason I suppose is that someone who lies can get others to accept all sorts of false views, which will seriously drag them down and degrade their lives, and practice.

Just as you say, I'd imagine. Some are told a lie...some are told the truth...feelings are hurt...confusion arises. And lies can last a thousand years. Doesn't sound conducive to practicing Zen (I think.).

one finds, and must find, [i]compassionate ways of breaking the Precepts Perhaps...however I think I'll use the word you actually meant: "understanding" (rather than breaking?).
I'm guessing much thought has gone into the designing (?) of the Precepts, and include questioning such as ours. My (our) thoughts on the subject have been thought thousands of years ago
and probably millions of times since and must have included "wisdom and compassion."

Your comments about "true Wisdom and true Compassion" are the type of thoughts I hope lead my life. I'm obviously not a Zen Buddhist but seem to follow the Precepts never-the-less.

Thanks Joe.
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat May 21, 2016 10:45 pm

when a lie is told, it's ok by definition. Otherwise, it would not be told at all.

I heard this story today, just more gossip which could be seen as a lie in itself:

Many years ago, when Katagiri Roshi was at SFZC in SFO, he lived right next door to the temple. He was on the sidewalk in his robes before daylight on his way to the temple. Suddenly, he was surrounded by a local gang. They all stood still for quite a while looking at each other. Finally someone asked Roshi if he was a karate master. Katagiri said yes in a low voice. They all left immediately. Sometime later, he mentioned this in a dharma talk.... "sometimes, it's ok to lie."

linda
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3617
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun May 22, 2016 1:01 am

now that my attention is focused on lies, they're everywhere! This just came through... take it to the limit! (to quote the Eagles)

Whatever confronts you, don’t believe it.
When something appears, shine your light on it.
Have confidence in the light that’s always working inside you.
–Linji Yixuan
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
User avatar
Linda Anderson
 
Posts: 3617
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: Forestville, CA

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby fukasetsu on Mon May 23, 2016 4:53 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:The reason I suppose is that someone who lies can get others to accept all sorts of false views, which will seriously drag them down and degrade their lives, and practice.


There's a difference in telling a "lie" (as common dualistic folks see it) and in being a manipulator Joe.
Relationships between people are complex, so lies happen, it's no big deal, unless it becomes a habit.
But anyone can see that lying is never a solution, so we learn and adapt on how to communicate, but still it is complex there are many different characters and situations.

Nevertheless a societi/family/religion where "telling the truth" is enforced or made an ideal, is way more dangerous then allowing people to find their way in this complexity, there should be no judgement or praise on any kind of behaviour.

It is what smothers people.

I dont expect anyone to be truthful or lie, in prisons no one learns a thing, except to become something worse.

99% of kids are in a prison of their parents already, after that a whole lot more bs to come, let alone religious parents with their enhanced system of praising "good behaviour" and punishing "bad behaviour"

Reminds me of politics and voting.
Mijn Oude Vriend uit de woestijn begrijpt geen Nederlands. <3
User avatar
fukasetsu
 
Posts: 6465
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby dennis on Mon May 23, 2016 5:29 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:when a lie is told, it's ok by definition. Otherwise, it would not be told at all.

I heard this story today, just more gossip which could be seen as a lie in itself:

Many years ago, when Katagiri Roshi was at SFZC in SFO, he lived right next door to the temple. He was on the sidewalk in his robes before daylight on his way to the temple. Suddenly, he was surrounded by a local gang. They all stood still for quite a while looking at each other. Finally someone asked Roshi if he was a karate master. Katagiri said yes in a low voice. They all left immediately. Sometime later, he mentioned this in a dharma talk.... "sometimes, it's ok to lie."

linda


Sort of falls in with my earlier statement: "These "lies" that arise in us I believe are all caused by fear."

Could Katagiri Roshi have said other words that would have resulted in similar, perhaps even a better, conclusion to this scenario? Perhaps yes? Unfamiliarity with gangs, their individuals, and the present social tension between groups, may have left him no choice.

I hope people can see lying could and should be a "last" choice and not automatically take "the easy way out."
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby dennis on Mon May 23, 2016 6:10 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:The reason I suppose is that someone who lies can get others to accept all sorts of false views, which will seriously drag them down and degrade their lives, and practice.


There's a difference in telling a "lie" (as common dualistic folks see it) and in being a manipulator Joe.
Relationships between people are complex, so lies happen, it's no big deal, unless it becomes a habit.
But anyone can see that lying is never a solution, so we learn and adapt on how to communicate, but still it is complex there are many different characters and situations.

Nevertheless a societi/family/religion where "telling the truth" is enforced or made an ideal, is way more dangerous then allowing people to find their way in this complexity, there should be no judgement or praise on any kind of behaviour.

It is what smothers people.

I dont expect anyone to be truthful or lie, in prisons no one learns a thing, except to become something worse.

99% of kids are in a prison of their parents already, after that a whole lot more bs to come, let alone religious parents with their enhanced system of praising "good behaviour" and punishing "bad behaviour"

Reminds me of politics and voting.


"Nevertheless a societi/family/religion where "telling the truth" is enforced or made an ideal, is way more dangerous then allowing people to find their way in this complexity, there should be no judgement or praise on any kind of behaviour."

I've "raised" kids and I've promoted "telling the truth" and with some favorable results, but believe your hypothesis (the "prison" part). And I believe I can speak for my kids and say they certainly felt somewhat smothered at times. But, regardless, there are things/complexities children will learn later that force us, as parents, to act as guardians/keepers (if you will). (It's the most difficult "job" I've ever had....didn't have a clue how hard (to do correctly) until waaaaay down the road. Perhaps a favorable outcome of the "prison" part is just teaching kids about the realities of society?).
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby Pemako on Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:49 am

Ervin wrote:I am interested in what is the opinion on the subject of lies. Is it ever ok? If it is then when?

Thanks


I lie every time I open my mouth. Is it ever ok? I don't know.
"The victorious ones have said
That emptiness is the relinquishing of all views.
For whomever emptiness is a view,
That one has accomplished nothing."
User avatar
Pemako
 
Posts: 460
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:45 am

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby TTT on Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:44 am

You shuld listen to what your mothere is saying and Think a bit about it. This can be difficult thought.

Peace.
Spring time
TTT
 
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 8:38 am

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby dennis on Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:57 pm

Pemako wrote:
Ervin wrote:I am interested in what is the opinion on the subject of lies. Is it ever ok? If it is then when?

Thanks


I lie every time I open my mouth. Is it ever ok? I don't know.


And I've just read:

Bodhidharma said, "Self-nature is subtle and mysterious.
In the realm of the inexplicable Dharma, not preaching
a single word is called the Precept of Not Lying."

Robert Aitken..."The Mind of Clover"
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby dennis on Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:18 pm

TTT wrote:You shuld listen to what your mothere is saying and Think a bit about it. This can be difficult thought.

Peace.


Sometimes words and thoughts are like thrashing fish.
Even though you may strike them directly
and strongly upon their head, they will not
lie still and continue to wiggle.

:heya: dennis
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
dennis
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: Chico California

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby macdougdoug on Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:42 pm

Separation and conflict between me and my thoughts is confusion.

:ghug:
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Is it ever ok to lie?

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:46 pm

Dennis,

dennis wrote:Even though you may strike them directly
and strongly upon their head, they will not
lie still and continue to wiggle.

Interesting.

A thing to try for fun could be just not to feed a thought. Starve it out. Just be stingy. What does that feel like? It's just not adding any energy to the development of it. And not taking anything away. And not forgetting to breathe; and relax the shoulders. ;)

Again, this is just for fun, it's not (necessarily) a Zen Buddhist practice, or method. I bring it up just casually.

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 6256
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Beginners Questions Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron
 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests