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White People are Scary

Discussion of Theravada Buddhism in the light of Zen.

Re: White People are Scary

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:23 am

chicka-Dee wrote:Thank you, Chris. :heya:

I think the large group thing might be understood better when we consider that a supportive atmoshere of sharing can make it easier for people to open up and share themselves. I'm thinking of something like the Dale Carnegie groups or Toastmasters where people with a fear of public speaking come together in a supportive way to learn to overcome their fear and speak in a group effectively.

Also, we saw a 10 minute edited glimpse, and didn't see what occurred before the video started. Had we been there in the crowd, a part of the group itself, it may have felt much more comfortable and inspiring to some people watching. This is how I felt, as an audience member sharing in something quite amazing for this woman.

I'm sure there must be some "marketing" that takes place -- but marketing takes place all over in spirituality. Every time I drive by the local church, there's a big sign with the quote of the week, asking me to turn towards God. Buddhism has it's marketing too. ;)

And even though I wasn't quite understanding your objections, Lok, I really like your spirit, too. Your comments and questions pressed me to look a little deeper, and that's always a good thing. :)

Thanks to all for sharing here.
:ghug:


Hi Dee,
I really liked the way you presented this, until now. Because, to me, you seem to be diluting your original message. I recognize that there are many points of view, yet this seems off to me... expecially when you bring up Dale Carnegie courses to equate Katie's work with a supportive environment. This just does not compute with your earlier statements about the phenomena of inquiry and how we can see beyond our stories.

such as
This whole issue of race and racism is NOT what this thread is about. This just happened to be the issue for the woman in the video, the source of her suffering and pain. And through some self-inquiry, with the help of Byron Katie, she got to the heart of the matter,


Indeed, it's not about race, neither is it about support from our peers. OH MY....

So what's up.

Linda
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby christopher::: on Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:46 am

Similar to Dale Carnegie, Eckhart Tolle or perhaps Genpo Roshi?

I dunno. I think that doing this kind of introspective "work" in a large group setting can be helpful and effective. It depends a lot on the skills of the facilitator, probably, and the effectiveness of their method. Also the mood of the audience, their willingness to be supportive of one another. In 2007 Byron Katie traveled to Israel. That's really putting her process/approach to the test. If she can be effective over there, she definitely has something of value to share, imo.

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Re: White People are Scary

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:52 am

Just to be clear, I do trust Katie's work and have no problem with vulnerable issues in public (of course when people are willing).

I was wondering if Dee was defending by equating it to Dale Carnegie which to me is another mentation ... it seemed a little off and i wondered why... Dale Carnegie is QUITE ANOTHER phenomena from Byron Katie, Tolle and all the others who go beyond trying to impress our business networking buddies thru speach and body language... don't ya know.

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Re: White People are Scary

Postby moon face buddha on Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:02 am

At the end of the day ALL these people are selling you something you already own.
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:05 am

moon face buddha wrote:At the end of the day ALL these people are selling you something you already own.


OK, just like zen masters selling water by the river.... I have no complaints.
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby So-on Mann on Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:42 am

moon face buddha wrote:At the end of the day ALL these people are selling you something you already own.


Hey if it helps some people, WTF
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby goddess on Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:28 am

Linda Anderson wrote:
chicka-Dee wrote:Thank you, Chris. :heya:

I think the large group thing might be understood better when we consider that a supportive atmoshere of sharing can make it easier for people to open up and share themselves. I'm thinking of something like the Dale Carnegie groups or Toastmasters where people with a fear of public speaking come together in a supportive way to learn to overcome their fear and speak in a group effectively.

Also, we saw a 10 minute edited glimpse, and didn't see what occurred before the video started. Had we been there in the crowd, a part of the group itself, it may have felt much more comfortable and inspiring to some people watching. This is how I felt, as an audience member sharing in something quite amazing for this woman.

I'm sure there must be some "marketing" that takes place -- but marketing takes place all over in spirituality. Every time I drive by the local church, there's a big sign with the quote of the week, asking me to turn towards God. Buddhism has it's marketing too. ;)

And even though I wasn't quite understanding your objections, Lok, I really like your spirit, too. Your comments and questions pressed me to look a little deeper, and that's always a good thing. :)

Thanks to all for sharing here.
:ghug:


Hi Dee,
I really liked the way you presented this, until now. Because, to me, you seem to be diluting your original message. I recognize that there are many points of view, yet this seems off to me... expecially when you bring up Dale Carnegie courses to equate Katie's work with a supportive environment. This just does not compute with your earlier statements about the phenomena of inquiry and how we can see beyond our stories.

such as
This whole issue of race and racism is NOT what this thread is about. This just happened to be the issue for the woman in the video, the source of her suffering and pain. And through some self-inquiry, with the help of Byron Katie, she got to the heart of the matter,


Indeed, it's not about race, neither is it about support from our peers. OH MY....

So what's up.

Linda



Oh Gosh Linda! I'll help her out here.... she is coming up with rational explanations in writing which requires logic and linearity, while trying to get across a whole gestaldt! She's doing her best to justify something which her heart knows to be true in a place where the mind is ruler.

But thanks for pointing it out Linda.
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby goddess on Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:31 am

moon face buddha wrote:At the end of the day ALL these people are selling you something you already own.


ya but everyone is so busy with disowning it, it is great that there are those very few who actually are able to stand up there, with authority and say 'THIS IS VALUABLE!!!'
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby goddess on Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:40 am

chicka-Dee wrote:Malicious: motivated by wrongful, vicious, or mischievous purposes

Telling people what they want to hear in order to make a profit isn't malicious?

Maybe my moral code is too strict. :blush:

You're entitled to your opinion, lok. Thanks for elaborating. I have no interest in trying to defend anything or convince you of anything.

Your last comment interests me: "we can't always find a thought for our maladaptive emotions."

I used to think this, too. I can't recall the source at the moment, but I learned that there is always a thought behind our emotion, even when we can't identify it.

For example: We see danger, we think the thought: danger! (or have a mental concept of this) And then a fear response is triggered. This is my understanding.


I think it is very hard to see what comes first, the emotion or the thought. After dealing with maladaptive emotions my thoughts are clearer and mostly less. Maybe it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation.
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby chicka-Dee on Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:52 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:Hi Dee,
I really liked the way you presented this, until now. Because, to me, you seem to be diluting your original message. I recognize that there are many points of view, yet this seems off to me... expecially when you bring up Dale Carnegie courses to equate Katie's work with a supportive environment. This just does not compute with your earlier statements about the phenomena of inquiry and how we can see beyond our stories.

such as
This whole issue of race and racism is NOT what this thread is about. This just happened to be the issue for the woman in the video, the source of her suffering and pain. And through some self-inquiry, with the help of Byron Katie, she got to the heart of the matter,


Indeed, it's not about race, neither is it about support from our peers. OH MY....

So what's up.

Linda


Hi Linda,

I can see what you mean about what Dale Carnegie might be teaching -- but what I was thinking is the group aspect of it, which is supportive to helping people get over their fear of speaking in front of a group (and not to compare it to what Katie is doing). My husband took this course through his employer, and I got to go to the first session. At the time I'd nearly have died getting up in front of a group, but I had to stand up and introduce myself, and as I was there with my husband and the atmosphere was so supportive (I wasn't the only one feeling nervous about this!) I surprised myself and did it with a lot of ease. I also remember my husband said they were told to speak about what you know from your own experience, and to be genuine about what you say (so while one might not agree with everything Dale Carnegie teaches, I think there are some things of value, there). And also overcoming a fear of public speaking does let us question what we are believing about ourselves!

We really need some form of Sangha to help us through transitions -- it's much easier to open up with support. These were my thoughts here, in trying to see why Katie would be holding these large group sessions (because I really don't know why she does it this way). This, and I think she's trying to reach as many people as she can. And perhaps this style fits for the way she likes to teach. I believe she does a lot of smaller group sessions as well, and it appeared the larger group session might be an introduction of sorts to doing a more intensive study with her.

It's just this issue seemed to be a problem for some people to get past, in order to see what else there was there.

The video (to me) isn't about Katie or her method of teaching, it's about the woman who made this life changing discovery. This is what I'm seeing and have been trying to focus on, but people keep bringing up all the surround, so I guess we should address it then.

I hope this answers your question, which I'm glad you brought up to allow me to clarify, since others might be wondering the same.


moon face buddha wrote:At the end of the day ALL these people are selling you something you already own.


'Tis true all over spirituality. Buddhism included. What are spiritual teachings? Our guides to the way. The finger pointing. Asking us to see what is already there. We end up doing some version of this sort of work along the way. What Katie is teaching is not at all unlike what Buddhist teachers have asked me to look at. Her particular approach may be different, but the result still points us in the same direction.
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby chicka-Dee on Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:00 pm

goddess wrote:I think it is very hard to see what comes first, the emotion or the thought. After dealing with maladaptive emotions my thoughts are clearer and mostly less. Maybe it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation.


I think it's a lot like what fukasetsu described:

fukasetsu wrote:hmmm.. for as my contemplations has took me, in a rudimentry way.
The "energy" before thought and feeling, is formed into sensation first, and is then triggered to an idea or thought. For feelings are traded in for ideas [ in nanonanomicroblabla thingies] after that ideas are traded into feeling again [the conventional ones, like vindictive stuff] and then we get 99% of what people call emotions, which is traded again into the idea of that it's inherent to being human

What a sly trick eh? we even take our ideas/emotions serious then.
But when the clowns bed down.... who is the light that still burns?
:ghug:


Except I'm not sure what those "nanonanomicroblabla thingies" are. :lol2:
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby chicka-Dee on Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:30 pm

christopher::: wrote:


This is great, thanks for posting this, Chris. What she has to say reminds me a lot of what the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh say about peace.

Peace begins within.

:Namaste:
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby Linda Anderson on Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:56 pm

Thanks Dee and Goddess,
You see how I can react to the words "Dale Carnegie", like a red flag. :) I forgot completely it is also useful and genuine, tho I do think it's fairly mental. (I think Katie is working in a wider field of consciousness.) I was swaying over on the fake side which is not fair.

About working in large groups, I think it can be enormously useful... wow, for the very reason that Dee pointed out on page one! We all get to witness an example of someone else's illusion AND reflect on our own illusions and how we hold onto them. The woman working with Katie is also doing a big service to all who are observing her, if they are paying attention to themselves and their process. Actually, it's quite efficient when you think that most people in the room are processing through it simultaneously. When taken at this level, it's not about the issue, it's about seeing illusions and how we make stories to support them. Especially for the shy ones, it's quite wonderful.

I started out working in groups (30-40) with a teacher who carried a spacious and mature consciousness, and had a Buddha heart yet not Buddhist form. Back then I had to rehearse saying my name, it was terrifying even though he assured us "it's just us chickens here". (love him!) There was no such thing as a private interview, we shared and held each other. There was no such thing as un-ethical behavior on his part... the way of working with consciousness supported that by seeing into the truth of the dynamic, not with rules. (this was not cathartic or therapeutic work, per se, it was about seeing truth) We looked at our patterns and illusions, and their suchness in a heart/ transpersonal consciousness without sentimentality. It was a given that each of us had to know from our experience, even if we got glimpses of the territory. No sense re-inventing the wheel.

I also see that I'm so used to that kind of work, it didn't occur to me to think of it as an issue. BTW, this is the format used for most satsangs out here by Adyashanti, Gangaji and many others.

Linda
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby lok91 on Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:42 pm

Linda Anderson wrote:Contrary is helpful as long as we notice what we mean by it. i like your spirit...

I presume you like my spirit because I have an inquiring mind and I'm readily willing to do The Work. Can we do some Work here?

White people are scary - no Work needed here I imagine. :)

Byron Katie is an awakened person - you wrote this earlier in the thread on page 2.

Lok is a contrarian - what you seem to be suggesting above.

In all of these cases we're applying some fundamental attribute to people. Earlier in the topic this was referred to as seeing through a "filter." That's a good way of putting it I think because that term aptly describes the process of what's happening. Our experience of something, whatever it might be, a racial group or individuals, for example, are 'filtered' down to their essential meaning. What I hope everyone realized is that this process is just the way our minds work and it's largely out of our conscious control. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with this process and in fact it can be quite efficient in accomplishing our goals. From a less personal vantage point, the problems which arise from these 'filters' are caused by applying a generalization or 'filtration' inappropriately to a specific situation; essentially applying the general to the specific. Applying the general to the specific can result in all kinds of mistakes.

So how does identity fit into all of this? The catalyst which binds is meaning, specifically our desire for meaning, because our 'filtration' process is based on our subjective purposes, or rather, what we find meaningful.

"The Work" is itself a filter or distillation, only it is an engineered distillation. There is nothing wrong with that, it's not malicious. It can fulfill our desire for meaning and act as a catalyst to bind people together for mutual benefit.
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby lok91 on Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:53 pm

chicka-Dee wrote:These were my thoughts here, in trying to see why Katie would be holding these large group sessions (because I really don't know why she does it this way). This, and I think she's trying to reach as many people as she can. And perhaps this style fits for the way she likes to teach.

I've actually been to an event vary similar the format that Katie uses. It's ritual, basically. Rituals can be deeply meaningful or totally superficial, depends on the individual and their reasons for participating.
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby chicka-Dee on Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:40 pm

Hello Linda,

Wonderful! :) Noticing our own reactions is what this is about. Whenever our buttons are pushed, this is the invitation! After awhile we start to become grateful for the irritants, lol, because they keep us real!

Linda Anderson wrote:About working in large groups, I think it can be enormously useful... wow, for the very reason that Dee pointed out on page one! We all get to witness an example of someone else's illusion AND reflect on our own illusions and how we hold onto them. The woman working with Katie is also doing a big service to all who are observing her, if they are paying attention to themselves and their process. Actually, it's quite efficient when you think that most people in the room are processing through it simultaneously. When taken at this level, it's not about the issue, it's about seeing illusions and how we make stories to support them. Especially for the shy ones, it's quite wonderful.

I started out working in groups (30-40) with a teacher who carried a spacious and mature consciousness, and had a Buddha heart yet not Buddhist form. Back then I had to rehearse saying my name, it was terrifying even though he assured us "it's just us chickens here". (love him!) There was no such thing as a private interview, we shared and held each other. There was no such thing as un-ethical behavior on his part... the way of working with consciousness supported that by seeing into the truth of the dynamic, not with rules. (this was not cathartic or therapeutic work, per se, it was about seeing truth) We looked at our patterns and illusions, and their suchness in a heart/ transpersonal consciousness without sentimentality. It was a given that each of us had to know from our experience, even if we got glimpses of the territory. No sense re-inventing the wheel.

I also see that I'm so used to that kind of work, it didn't occur to me to think of it as an issue. BTW, this is the format used for most satsangs out here by Adyashanti, Gangaji and many others.

Linda


Yes, this is exactly it. I think to begin with it's easier to see in others, but we can only tend to our own gardens. The teacher you describe sounds wonderful and quite pivotal for you in your practice. I just think this all is worthwhile to talk about for anyone who doesn't already have guidance in this way.

I'm quite familiar with Adyashanti, who was a Zen Buddhist practitioner for 15 years and then started teaching at the request of his teacher. He talks about core issues and seeing through our stories. Also Advaita teacher Jean Klein and so many others. What I enjoy about Adyashanti is his radio broadcast (which is free, btw) and where he talks to live callers about their spiritual questions -- I find I learn so much about people's processes this way, and can reflect on my own.
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby partofit22 on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:56 pm

lok91 wrote:
Linda Anderson wrote:Contrary is helpful as long as we notice what we mean by it. i like your spirit...

I presume you like my spirit because I have an inquiring mind and I'm readily willing to do The Work. Can we do some Work here?

White people are scary - no Work needed here I imagine. :)

Byron Katie is an awakened person - you wrote this earlier in the thread on page 2.

Lok is a contrarian - what you seem to be suggesting above.

In all of these cases we're applying some fundamental attribute to people. Earlier in the topic this was referred to as seeing through a "filter." That's a good way of putting it I think because that term aptly describes the process of what's happening. Our experience of something, whatever it might be, a racial group or individuals, for example, are 'filtered' down to their essential meaning. What I hope everyone realized is that this process is just the way our minds work and it's largely out of our conscious control. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with this process and in fact it can be quite efficient in accomplishing our goals. From a less personal vantage point, the problems which arise from these 'filters' are caused by applying a generalization or 'filtration' inappropriately to a specific situation; essentially applying the general to the specific. Applying the general to the specific can result in all kinds of mistakes.

So how does identity fit into all of this? The catalyst which binds is meaning, specifically our desire for meaning, because our 'filtration' process is based on our subjective purposes, or rather, what we find meaningful.

"The Work" is itself a filter or distillation, only it is an engineered distillation. There is nothing wrong with that, it's not malicious. It can fulfill our desire for meaning and act as a catalyst to bind people together for mutual benefit.


are there any koans, stories, verses or cases that directly refer to these filters/screens?
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby chicka-Dee on Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:30 am

lok91 wrote:
Linda Anderson wrote:Contrary is helpful as long as we notice what we mean by it. i like your spirit...

I presume you like my spirit because I have an inquiring mind and I'm readily willing to do The Work. Can we do some Work here?

White people are scary - no Work needed here I imagine. :)

Byron Katie is an awakened person - you wrote this earlier in the thread on page 2.

Lok is a contrarian - what you seem to be suggesting above.

In all of these cases we're applying some fundamental attribute to people. Earlier in the topic this was referred to as seeing through a "filter." That's a good way of putting it I think because that term aptly describes the process of what's happening. Our experience of something, whatever it might be, a racial group or individuals, for example, are 'filtered' down to their essential meaning. What I hope everyone realized is that this process is just the way our minds work and it's largely out of our conscious control. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with this process and in fact it can be quite efficient in accomplishing our goals. From a less personal vantage point, the problems which arise from these 'filters' are caused by applying a generalization or 'filtration' inappropriately to a specific situation; essentially applying the general to the specific. Applying the general to the specific can result in all kinds of mistakes.

So how does identity fit into all of this? The catalyst which binds is meaning, specifically our desire for meaning, because our 'filtration' process is based on our subjective purposes, or rather, what we find meaningful.

"The Work" is itself a filter or distillation, only it is an engineered distillation. There is nothing wrong with that, it's not malicious. It can fulfill our desire for meaning and act as a catalyst to bind people together for mutual benefit.


By looking at this as an intellectual discussion, you miss the point.

As Fuky said,

...when the clowns bed down.... who is the light that still burns?


In the end, this is what it's about.
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby lok91 on Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:25 am

chicka-Dee wrote:By looking at this as an intellectual discussion, you miss the point.

:lol2: Cool with me, Chicka-Dee.

Who is the light that still burns?
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Re: White People are Scary

Postby goddess on Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:06 am

Linda Anderson wrote:Thanks Dee and Goddess,
You see how I can react to the words "Dale Carnegie", like a red flag. :) I forgot completely it is also useful and genuine, tho I do think it's fairly mental. (I think Katie is working in a wider field of consciousness.) I was swaying over on the fake side which is not fair.
....
Linda


I think this is the main problem on forums and actually with language. We red flag pieces and then respond to those, instead of getting the biger picture, the gestladt that the person is trying to get across. ... I mean I watch myself doing it too. So many times I have gone wow... this person has really tuned into the minute detail of my post and totally missed what I was saying.

Anyway not to pick on you Linda but just to point out an underlying thing that I see going on all the time.
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