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Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:44 pm
by maaeso
I have always like Theravada and Zen. Theravada due to the pali canon and the forest tradition. Zen because of teachers like Dogen and places like Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery in America & Antai-ji in Japan.

Many may know that Ajahn Thanissaro is quite prolific in the Theravada community and in particular the Thai Forest Tradition.

He is an excellent scholar and has written many incredible works.

Lately I heard that he has a secret soft spot for Dogen and enjoys reading Shobogenzo. In particular he thinks:

The fifty-first patriarch was Priest Eihei Dogen. He studied with Priest Tien-t'ung Ju-ching. Once, during late night zazen, Ju-ching told the monks, "Studying Zen is the dropping off of body and mind." Hearing this, the master was suddenly greatly awakened. He went at once to the abbot's room and burned incense. Ju-ching asked him, "Why are you burning incense?" The master answered, "Body and mind have dropped off." Ju-ching said, "Body and mind have dropped off, the dropped-off body and mind." The master said, "This is a temporary ability; you must not approve me without reason." Ju-ching replied, "I am not approving you without reason." The master asked, "Why are you not approving me without reason?" Ju-ching said, "You dropped off body and mind." The master bowed. Ju-ching said, "You have dropped off dropping off."

Is related to Nibbana as understood in the Pali Canon/Theravada.

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:41 pm
by desert_woodworker
"Liking" is good.

Better is to be as deeply as possible adept in the practice(s) of the school you like. Or both schools. Or more.
Actually, "liking" is as shallow as it gets, if there's no more than that. :Namaste:

--Joe

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:02 am
by maaeso
desert_woodworker wrote:"Liking" is good.

Better is to be as deeply as possible adept in the practice(s) of the school you like. Or both schools. Or more.
Actually, "liking" is as shallow as it gets, if there's no more than that. :Namaste:

--Joe


I think he takes it pretty deep ;)

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:07 am
by Avisitor
Please explain dropping off body and mind

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:07 pm
by desert_woodworker
g'morning, Av,

Avisitor wrote:Please explain dropping off body and mind

It is dropping body and mind. It is the dropping away of body and mind, and especially the aftermath of the dropping away. Using everything freely, spontaneously, but absolutely no sense of a body, and definitely no mind.

In Ch'an or Zen Buddhist circles, it happens suddenly (as it happened for Dogen, with his teacher Ju-ching, the teacher he had always looked for).

That's all the explanation that can be given. It's more a description. An "explanation" would have to include all the practice(s) that the awakened person had undergone/undertaken, and all the help he/she had from a teacher and sangha and myriad other cooperating causes and conditions.

Again, it's what happened to/for Dogen. And many others.

--Joe

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:22 am
by Spike
Avisitor wrote:Please explain dropping off body and mind


It is always interesting to invite the opinions of fellow students. For a definitive, valid, reliable answer, obviously it is best to rely on a trusted teacher to confirm or provide information.

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:40 am
by Linda Anderson
Maaeso,
I'm not a scholar so I have no idea about Nibbana, Pali Canon/Theravada... never mind I see truth when i do: "You have dropped off dropping off." In the past on this forum, I have seen Zen and Theravada folks discuss their similarities.

linda

maaeso wrote: Ju-ching said, "You have dropped off dropping off." [/b]

Is related to Nibbana as understood in the Pali Canon/Theravada.

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:49 am
by Linda Anderson
desert_woodworker wrote:"Liking" is good.

Better is to be as deeply as possible adept in the practice(s) of the school you like. Or both schools. Or more.
Actually, "liking" is as shallow as it gets, if there's no more than that. :Namaste:

--Joe


Like is not the keyword here.... the beauty of what Maaeso said is not attached to liking. It's a larger conversation. I see appreciation and recognition... and, a precious story about Dogen's teacher.... which I think is often missing in the seeking. Dogen dropped the dropping off, no explanation is needed.

linda

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:53 am
by Linda Anderson
Spike wrote:
Avisitor wrote:Please explain dropping off body and mind


It is always interesting to invite the opinions of fellow students. For a definitive, valid, reliable answer, obviously it is best to rely on a trusted teacher to confirm or provide information.


I'd say the dropping of body and mind can't be explained.... and I wouldn't depend on a teacher for that either. It's unmistakable, or not. Ofc, there may be a few false starts along the way... :PP:

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:01 pm
by Spike
Linda Anderson wrote:I'd say the dropping of body and mind can't be explained....


Not a negative explanation?

Linda Anderson wrote: and I wouldn't depend on a teacher for that either.


"for that". Well, at least a teacher is good for something, then. I think I may know what you mean about depending on teachers, though. Just like the rest of us, some things are beyond them.

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:14 pm
by desert_woodworker
Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:Like is not the keyword here.... the beauty of what Maaeso said is not attached to liking. It's a larger conversation.

Sure, and I don't mind at all your trying to speak for the OP. The conversation is as large as we want.

Linda Anderson wrote:It's a larger conversation

It has become so, by now (but the point at question is very tiny).

But, the "conversation" is why I came back for a second brush, at the time to answer Avisitor, by the time he repeated the question.

Linda Anderson wrote:Dogen dropped the dropping off, no explanation is needed.

I agree that the best is to experience this (to enable and allow it), and to continue. Descriptions don't necessarily help to save sentient beings: only true Wisdom can do that, in them (an original Human-inheritance freed-up by correct practice). And "explanations"?: not the proper word. Descriptions, if anything.

"Liking" the similarities -- if any -- between Theravada and Ch'an or Zen Buddhist accounts of this (if indeed there are any that are similar) is just "liking" the dharma, which means liking the way things truly are. Since liking the way things truly are is no biggie (after a few minutes or hours of the initial astonishing novelty and joy of it, "like" no other), one, yes, drops the dropping. And Ju-ching, or whomever one's teacher is, will recognize that, then maybe give you a good swat, and advise you to take good care (of your realization). I.e., Practice continues, by way of "maintenance".

Such is what I'd say, and is what I am saying.

:Namaste:,

--Joe

ps Appreciation of Archaic Buddhism and of Mahayana is fine and dandy as can be (or better), if that is the "liking" in the OP. Without those bodies or vehicles, our practice would not have reached us.

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:18 pm
by organizational
-Question 1 Why do we love eachother?

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:30 pm
by organizational
or do not?

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:56 pm
by Spike
organizational wrote:-Question 1 Why do we love eachother?


"eachother"

Beautifully put

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:59 pm
by desert_woodworker
org'l, Enver,

organizational wrote:-Question 1 Why do we love eachother?

It's because there are conditions of mind-body in which we are able -- or induced; have no honest choice but -- to apprehend things and others as if there is duality, and, as if there really are... Others. In other words, body and mind have not dropped away.

(trying to make the question fit the thread topic; but, Enver, your question may draw more responses if you begin a new and dedicated thread with it. I think that would be interesting)

Happy New Month,

--Joe

Re: Dropping off Body & Mind - Theravada

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:11 am
by desert_woodworker
I think there's no connection between Archaic Buddhist ideas, and the phenomenon of dropping body and mind in the Mahayana (in Ch'an and Zen circles).

I find none.

It's been a good study: Thanks (!).

--Joe