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Stream entry from Zen perspective

Discussion of Theravada Buddhism in the light of Zen.

Stream entry from Zen perspective

Postby zenci on Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:19 pm

What is the Theravadin "stream entry" from a Zen perspective?

Stream entry is a moment of cessation of all experience. After that the mind comes online, this time with a reduced sense of self.
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Re: Stream entry from Zen perspective

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:31 pm

zenci,

zenci wrote:What is the Theravadin "stream entry" from a Zen perspective?

There may be no equivalent, or none worth trying to make a parallel with.

Best -- I'd suggest -- is to discuss this with the Zen Buddhist teacher you are with, in case it is relevant at all, or has some parallel in the Zen Buddhist stream (lineage) you share with that teacher and sangha.

rgds,

--Joe
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Re: Stream entry from Zen perspective

Postby Caodemarte on Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:07 am

Stream entry is defined and used differently by different people in Theravada. Some use it as an apparent synonym for what Zen folk might call an awakening experience or release of no great depth (as implied by the word "entry").

Some use it to describe an insightful experience, a stage, or even as the beginning of faith in Theravada. Experiences and stages are temporary events. Zen teachers usually do not like to get into discussions of such things as they can terribly mislead or divert one. Buddhism, including Theravada, aims at realizing the fundamental nature beyond states. In some ways, Zen history is the history of a reaction to the danger of getting sidetracked by scholasticism, "stages," and experiences.

However, as Joe points out, this is all is only of intellectual interest. The key is realization and practice in whichever tradition you find most useful.
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Re: Stream entry from Zen perspective

Postby lobster on Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:40 am

zenci wrote:
Stream entry is a moment of cessation of all experience. After that the mind comes online, this time with a reduced sense of self.


You mean it's nothing to do with fishes?

[youtube]https://youtu.be/fowdCONhr0M[/youtube]

Ay caramba! :hide: Do you want fries with that?
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Re: Stream entry from Zen perspective

Postby jundo on Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:54 am

desert_woodworker wrote:zenci,

zenci wrote:What is the Theravadin "stream entry" from a Zen perspective?

There may be no equivalent, or none worth trying to make a parallel with.

Best -- I'd suggest -- is to discuss this with the Zen Buddhist teacher you are with, in case it is relevant at all, or has some parallel in the Zen Buddhist stream (lineage) you share with that teacher and sangha.

rgds,

--Joe


Sounds like good advice.

In Shikantaza, it is generally held that the entry to the river, middle of the river and other shore are all the river ... that the "other shore" is present throughout to those with Buddha Eye to see. Each drop of the river is constant arrival and holds the whole ocean, and our Practice-Enlightenment arrives and arrives constantly at the "other shore" even while still on this shore and mid-river!

Gassho, J
Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa
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Re: Stream entry from Zen perspective

Postby Dazzled on Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:50 pm

zenci wrote:What is the Theravadin "stream entry" from a Zen perspective?
.


I don't know what it is from a Zen perspective but in Tibetan Buddhism its said to be the equvalent of the first of the ten Bodhisattva levels.

.
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Re: Stream entry from Zen perspective

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:28 pm

I wouldn't say there are stages clearly demarcated or openly recognized in Zen Buddhist practice (except perhaps, for some, of indefinite boundaries that one might discuss with one's Zen Buddhist teacher), and no "belts", say (as in some martial arts).

Some of the only, err-r, "belts" that there are in Zen Buddhist practice are the ones we receive from the monitor who is walking the kyosaku (a.k.a. keisaku) around the zendo, and only on our request, upon those accupressure points in the shoulder or back, which, when stimulated sharply, help us to maintain stamina and focus in long-sits by rousing energy which then travels throughout the body.

I suppose, too, that some wear a belt -- a part of one's garments -- to assist in practices involving the breathing, at the tanden (tan tien, Chin.), which is also very good practice in its effects on health. But one does this with a teacher's assistance.

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: Stream entry from Zen perspective

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:24 pm

J.,

jundo wrote:Each drop of the river is constant arrival and holds the whole ocean, and our Practice-Enlightenment arrives and arrives constantly at the "other shore" even while still on this shore and mid-river!

And how could it be otherwise... .

I really appreciate what you say about this Jundo (and, thanks!).

--Joe
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