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The consept of religion

Discussion of Theravada Buddhism in the light of Zen.

Re: The consept of religion

Postby [james] on Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:51 pm

Michaeljc wrote:I have witnessed the formula that organised religion uses to keep it great and powerful. The formula was used with great effect in Europe throughout the middle ages. Two tools are used: fear and promise of utopia ....

I have witnessed the same pattern in Islam ....

I openly resist the common advice here that to practice Zen we must regularly engage with a teacher and Sangha – that we cannot experience authentic realisation without a teacher.


In a nutshell, the concept of religion.
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:36 am

Although we can't perhaps be very sure of what the OP had in mind in initiating this thread, I'll add that I think the concept of religion is a natural consequence of a need that probably arose in Humans some time after developing a consciousness that could support conceptual thought, or required conceptual thought for survival. I myself am thinking that this need or impulse is really quite ancient.

But I think that the American psychologist, Dr. Julian Jaynes (1920-1997), thought that it developed considerably later, maybe beginning about 1800 BC. Jaynes' estimate is based on a study of literature (while mine is guesswork and a sense gotten from intuition, plus an appreciation of the real slowness of evolution, usually requiring many hundreds or thousands of generations for a mutation to become widely shared in a broad [world-wide! ] population by inheritance, or, in some cases, convergence of behavior through culture and custom).

Or maybe the root of the genesis of the concept is due to something else: like inherent nature. Or some might prefer instead to say "instinct" (Human instinct), but we could argue that "instinct" may in fact spring from inherent nature (or from "DNA programming" through natural-selection of genes of those who predominantly survive to procreate, or of those who predominate by procreating prolifically).

--Joe
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby macdougdoug on Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:31 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
But I think that the American psychologist, Dr. Julian Jaynes (1920-1997), thought that it developed considerably later, maybe beginning about 1800 BC.


Would be helpful to see how Julian defines religion
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby macdougdoug on Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:41 pm

After reading a bit of Wikipedia, I'd resume his theory more like : religion was different way back because our brains were different.
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:46 pm

[james] wrote:
Michaeljc wrote:I have witnessed the formula that organised religion uses to keep it great and powerful. The formula was used with great effect in Europe throughout the middle ages. Two tools are used: fear and promise of utopia ....

I have witnessed the same pattern in Islam ....

I openly resist the common advice here that to practice Zen we must regularly engage with a teacher and Sangha – that we cannot experience authentic realisation without a teacher.


In a nutshell, the concept of religion.

Right. And we have to submit or yield for it. Becaues we can't resist the power of emotions. Otherwise we're robots. Otherwise we're angels. Humans have free will en emotion unlike angels, because the can chose out of love for Allah to be near him. Angels although they are better, in all ways, they lack that the can love. Humans are the expression of love. But there are the haters and fools.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby [james] on Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:55 pm

Lunarious1987 wrote:Right. And we have to submit or yield for it. Becaues we can't resist the power of emotions. Otherwise we're robots. Otherwise we're angels. Humans have free will en emotion unlike angels, because the can chose out of love for Allah to be near him. Angels although they are better, in all ways, they lack that the can love. Humans are the expression of love. But there are the haters and fools.


Not so fast... Dhamma Brother. We are neither robots nor angels. We are free Human beings, as you say, free in all aspects of our being. We need neither resist nor submit to the power of emotion which is, after all, an inherent, essential part of our humanity. We can use and express our emotion carefully and creatively in loving kindness (Metta), compassion (Karuna), and wisdom (Paññā). Our freedom is not given to us. We are free. It is when we yield to the fearful binding of religion and conquest/warfare that we surrender our freedom and responsibility.
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:03 pm

[james] wrote:
Lunarious1987 wrote:Right. And we have to submit or yield for it. Becaues we can't resist the power of emotions. Otherwise we're robots. Otherwise we're angels. Humans have free will en emotion unlike angels, because the can chose out of love for Allah to be near him. Angels although they are better, in all ways, they lack that the can love. Humans are the expression of love. But there are the haters and fools.


Not so fast... Dhamma Brother. We are neither robots nor angels. We are free Human beings, as you say, free in all aspects of our being. We need neither resist nor submit to the power of emotion which is, after all, an inherent, essential part of our humanity. We can use and express our emotion carefully and creatively in loving kindness (Metta), compassion (Karuna), and wisdom (Paññā). Our freedom is not given to us. We are free. It is when we yield to the fearful binding of religion and conquest/warfare that we surrender our freedom and responsibility.

I am not fast, and you are not "slower". You are living in your bubble, which Buddhism endows because otherwise you are not protected and you ARE vulnerable. The ascending religion of east Asia. Rising to the top from earth (the conflifct filled world). Buddhists identify themselves with their goal. This is like taking a test on internet, you are asked to answer uprightly and honestly, but one answers according to what he wishes and his goal.

The religion of the west Asia, AKA divine religions, AKA decending religions - because the divine comes down to us instead of that we have to go to it, Islam is a blessing, submitting is a blessing which only muslims know the joy of. Like when you SAY I give up. Which is peace. Whom are you giving UP to? You are giving up and submitting to God, Allah, and his well crafted religion and allowing him to operate on you as a doctor operates a body. When you submitt, and give up, you are not moving, you are still and allowing the room which occurs to Allah. And in the end, it is best for you. It is offered to you. Allah is the only giver, everyone else are trying to survive or something.

Peace (Can I have your facebook my equal in humanity? Send it in PM if you want to.)
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby [james] on Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:55 am

In freedom we are vulnerable, in vulnerability we are free.
I have face but no book.
Peace
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:32 am

Some nice throws and tosses here, having little to do with other things, which, by the way, I suggest one squelch, in my posting this. Silly. I know. No one can do it.

I know. At first.

--Joe

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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:37 am

How do you know that? The Quran talks about ships and stormy seas contra peaceful sea and land. He says, when there is a storm they pray dilligently for salvation, but when we save them to land safely, they go about playing and forget Us. Tears (and fear and pain) are Allahs weapon. He says, i've inflicted pain on them, will they not open their eyes and believe?

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:31 am

hi, guy,

Lunarious1987 wrote:How do you know that?

Tears (and fear and pain) are Allahs weapon. He says, i've inflicted pain on them, will they not open their eyes and believe?

Oh? Does "he" say that?

Sounds like what "SHE" said. ;)

--Joe

ps tears and fears and pain are not 'weapons'. They are facts of Daily Life. So is happiness and Joy. Wake up to it. I hope you can enjoy the music.
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby [james] on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:39 am

The misery of religion.
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:06 am

[j.],

[james] wrote:The misery of religion.

Sure. Not all are Grateful Dead (Los Muertos Agradecidos) fans. Nor 6-string players, of any stripe.

Takes all kinds,

--Joe

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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:21 am

4 When you see them, their appearance impresses you. And when they speak, you listen to what they say. They are like propped-up timber. They think every shout is aimed at them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. Allah condemns them; how deluded they are! And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you," they bend their heads, and you see them turning away arrogantly.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby partofit22 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:29 am

Lunarious1987 wrote:4 When you see them, their appearance impresses you. And when they speak, you listen to what they say. They are like propped-up timber. They think every shout is aimed at them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. Allah condemns them; how deluded they are! And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you," they bend their heads, and you see them turning away arrogantly.


Like hollow trunks of trees-

That's an interesting line- Is it aimed to frighten, or to describe or both?
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:31 am

"Propped up timber" is just my cup of tea.

I am a woodworker.

In the desert.

tnx,

--Joe
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:33 am

You'r up late Joe. Whats the temperature there?
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:50 am

partofit22 wrote:
Lunarious1987 wrote:4 When you see them, their appearance impresses you. And when they speak, you listen to what they say. They are like propped-up timber. They think every shout is aimed at them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. Allah condemns them; how deluded they are! And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you," they bend their heads, and you see them turning away arrogantly.


Like hollow trunks of trees-

That's an interesting line- Is it aimed to frighten, or to describe or both?

I think it means they are like wood, also like Wu Xing, they can't carry thir own weight and leaning towards others for support. Therefore they think every cry is against/for them.

Peace
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:50 am

Thanks, Michael. Happy Solstice!, to you and yours.

It's only 8:40 PM, here (20:40). Not late at all. Our time zone is UTC minus 7 hours (UTC - 7). I'm up for an hour or two more, if there's further fun trouble I can get into. Or get people out of.

Time Zone in these parts is "Mountain-Standard-Time".

Man-o-man, o-man, I love the mountains being "STANDARD". I know I am in my right place.

--Joe (Mountain-man)

ps Temperature on my best thermometer is at present (8:44 PM), 58 deg F (about 14.4 C). This is at 2450 ft elevation (747 m above MSL). Cheers, --Joe

Michaeljc wrote:You're up late Joe. Whats the temperature there?
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:28 am

14 C - a little chilly. I think passenger planes maintain 18 C ? I'm guessing its 24 C here in the evening. Perfect.

Solstice in 5.5 hours. (11.44 PM here). A little late but I may try to stay up for a sit. Dogen loved his solstice sits. :)

There is a mother and a father in the Zendo :)
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