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The consept of religion

Discussion of Theravada Buddhism in the light of Zen.

Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:36 pm

You're still coward. I do not want the last word either way, only against sick cowardly people. Fuck off!
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:15 pm

Defeated.

When no one will play your game, you lose by default. No blame. No fault.

Try a flame-site. This is a Zen Buddhist discussion forum.
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:33 pm

No, then i have peace. Allah doesn't play. I haven't asked for your participation. If you're not interested, simply leave without causing trouble.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:43 pm

Participating.

When you post a thread, or a post, you "ask".

There you have it.

--Joe
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:17 pm

Did it seem like i was asking? Didn't you say you were gonna leave me alone.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby [james] on Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:21 pm

Who will have the last word, ladies and gents?
Step right up.
Place your bet!
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby anka on Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:26 pm

The earth will have the last word!

When we are all buried and gone.
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:32 pm

If we drink to that, then, we'd better do it sooner rather than later. ;)

Make mine tea: this is a Theravadan Buddhism thread (believe it or not).

--Joe
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby HePo on Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:40 pm

I-always-get-the-last-word---ecard.jpg
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby partofit22 on Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:15 pm

HePo wrote:
I-always-get-the-last-word---ecard.jpg



:lol2:
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Re: The CONCEPT of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:43 am

I-always-get-the-last-word---ecard.jpg

That's what HE said, ...after what SHE said.

Or, who knows... maybe it's Turtles, all the way ...down.

That's called an -- THE -- Infinite Regress.

Says he,

--Joe (cón la última palabra... )
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:39 pm

Clown
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby dennis on Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:22 pm

Hello everyone. Was trying to lurk when it looked like I would get the reasoning behind all the killing being done, supposedly in Allah's name.

Then I saw something about liking to drink milk instead of blood and thought: The history and actions of many fanatical Muslims around the world show us this
is NOT the case. But perhaps not in the fairy tales they like to tell themselves to make their actions more palatable.

So I wondered: Is this person so ashamed of his religion that he'll lie in his god's face? No one forces them to drink this blood, although they will tell you so.

So why are only Muslims doing this...the conclusion must be that they drink the blood because they are political and obey the orders of the blood drinkers
in order to differentiate themselves from the non-blood drinkers and use this technique to attempt to intimidate others; at least in what I've observed. What
they call faith is more like "gangsterism" based on violence , intimidation, and hatred; and they wonder why no one likes them.

Sorry for crudely barging in but this (unfortunately...you tried) is a very crude set of circumstances our brother brings to us.

If you remove my diatribe I'll understand and will be more polite in the future.
One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate, the Buddha called to him:
"Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?"
Manjusri replied:
"I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?"
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Michaeljc on Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:13 pm

I have witnessed the formula that organised religion uses to keep it great and powerful. The formula was used with great effect in Europe throughout the middle ages. Two tools are used: fear and promise of utopia if one tows the line. I remember as a little Catholic boy trying to imagine what it would be like to burn in hell for ever and just how horrible that would be. I was offered pathway out by confessing my sins to a priest. One such sin I confessed was my throwing a log over a cliff into a rock pool in a public reserve. There were many more such sins. There was also the relentless family and peer pressure to continue going to mass in later years. I remember the shock of my parents when a younger brother said “I no longer want to go to mass”. Much later both my parents and many others left the church. They had lost their fear and saw many priests for what they were – career religious that were full of fear too.

I have witnessed the same pattern in Islam - young men that clearly did not want to come to a prayer session in the desert while on field trips. The older men making it quite clear that they MUST come. I remember a couple of young staff (all men, no women were permitted to work in that town) coming shuffling in giggling while holding a rolled up poster. It turned out be of a pretty girl in shorts and T-shirt. In this society this was pornography as decreed by the Mullahs. These men were unmarried and no doubt had never had a sexual relationship. Homosexual relationships (starting at 12 yrs of age) prior to marriage were very common and accepted by that system.

On a number of occasions I have been quizzed at length about liberal attitudes to relationships in developed countries. I was from another planet. These were normal young men to whom I had the utmost respect. I would trust them with my life. They were clean, disciplined and honest. The iron fist of the Mosque had its good side too. I once said to a mature Muslim man who was a retired general in the Jordanian army that one day the flood gates will open in Islam. The young will leave in droves. He simply would not and could not accept this.

Right now in China, great elaborate Buddhist temples are springing up, all funded by people trying to buy a better after life. Fear.

I openly resist the common advice here that to practice Zen we must regularly engage with a teacher and Sangha – that we cannot experience authentic realisation without a teacher. One of the most distinctive features of this practice is its emphasis on a personal encounter and the development of freedom of thought. Every sit by every individual is unique to which the teacher cannot truly relate. After the incident, it is gone. Good teachers know this. I have briefly engaged with a number of teachers in different ways. I have sat 4 sesshin. All were useful but would be useless should I not practice alone. Here is where progress is really made. Just you/me and a cushion, every day. Being completely alone is very special. Through this we learn that we are not alone at all.

This practice is simple. Learn how to sit Zazen and do it on a daily basis. Use a teacher and Sangha when it is practical to do so. For most of us this is not the case. And don’t think that teacher and Sangha are a magic formula. The weakest link is an inability to commit to home practice on a daily basis. That is hard. I stand guilty myself what with going 6 months without sitting at one time.

Sorry for the long letter

m
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:39 pm

D.,

dennis wrote:Hello everyone. Was trying to lurk when it looked like I would get the reasoning behind all the killing being done, supposedly in Allah's name.

Evidently the founder had a realization of sorts, and has become called a prophet by followers.

This -- Islam, and the other two Abrahamic faiths -- is different from Buddhism because in Buddhism, one is encouraged to have the same experience as the founder, Shakyamuni's experience of transformation (realizing, or becoming one's true nature; waking up to true nature and henceforth living in seamless accord with it). It's not a religion of the book.

But in Islam, followers hold to the notion that all humans ought to trust their founder's writing to have the bottom-line on everything, in the things he wrote down about his realizations, their primary scripture. A fraction of the followers are missionary and will proselytize, and some others will use violence and threat of death to force others to claim to "convert", and to subject themselves to control. Claimed rewards for the missionaries and proselytizers include heavenly rewards, and earthly rewards. The latter, earthly rewards, are described in the chapter "The Spoils" of the writing, and really show the barbarity of the time and culture and place in which those notes were made, some 1400 years ago.

Despite much Islamic scholarship done over centuries, some followers are frozen at a date and culture and behavior of some tribes of 1400 years ago in a small region of the earth. Unfortunately, they now also have modern tools of coercion and killing to apply in present time.

(The Sufi sect is the uniquely mystical sect, and does not carry on as other sects and individuals do).

Buddhism has scriptures, also. They all point toward waking up. Disciples are not believers, but effectively medical patients seeking the proper cure for the condition of dukha, ultimate unsatisfactoriness of every facet of life lived as they have been living it, un-awake to true nature. The Buddhist scriptures also encourage, as well as point. They contain no claims of a god, nor do they attempt to teach a metaphysics. Waking-up is the aim, and, as waking-up brings with it true Wisdom and true Compassion, the awake person does not need to learn these things from a book. Waking-up is the result of correct practice.

--Joe
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby Lunarious1987 on Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:50 am

Clown. Your information is good, but i don't know.
- Don't be thankful to be righteous. Be righteous to be thankful.
- Shia: "We are the friends/owners of proof, wherever it bends we bend."
- Imam Hussein was once asked: what is affluence? He said : Decreasing your wishes , and being satisfied with what is enough for you.”
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby macdougdoug on Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:07 am

desert_woodworker wrote:D.,

dennis wrote:Evidently the founder had a realization of sorts



I heard that he was visited by an entity claiming to be the angel gabriel; not sure this is the same as realisation.
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby macdougdoug on Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:48 pm

dennis wrote:Was trying to lurk when it looked like I would get the reasoning behind all the killing being done, supposedly in Allah's name.



This is more a question of culture than religion - it seems that people who herd cattle for a living are more prone to violence than those who sow and reap vegetables and stuff. Islam was born in the Arabian peninsula where people were mostly nomadic shepherds. A tough living were you had to make sure no one stole your camel. If anyone tried, best kill them to make sure it didn't happen again.

As for why "Suicidal Jihad" has become so fashionable, who knows? Probably for the same reasons Trump will soon be president : basic human stupidity, herd instinct, too much information, and a long period of economic difficulty.
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby partofit22 on Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:32 am

Michaeljc wrote:I have witnessed the formula that organised religion uses to keep it great and powerful. The formula was used with great effect in Europe throughout the middle ages. Two tools are used: fear and promise of utopia if one tows the line. I remember as a little Catholic boy trying to imagine what it would be like to burn in hell for ever and just how horrible that would be. I was offered pathway out by confessing my sins to a priest. One such sin I confessed was my throwing a log over a cliff into a rock pool in a public reserve. There were many more such sins. There was also the relentless family and peer pressure to continue going to mass in later years. I remember the shock of my parents when a younger brother said “I no longer want to go to mass”. Much later both my parents and many others left the church. They had lost their fear and saw many priests for what they were – career religious that were full of fear too.

I have witnessed the same pattern in Islam - young men that clearly did not want to come to a prayer session in the desert while on field trips. The older men making it quite clear that they MUST come. I remember a couple of young staff (all men, no women were permitted to work in that town) coming shuffling in giggling while holding a rolled up poster. It turned out be of a pretty girl in shorts and T-shirt. In this society this was pornography as decreed by the Mullahs. These men were unmarried and no doubt had never had a sexual relationship. Homosexual relationships (starting at 12 yrs of age) prior to marriage were very common and accepted by that system.

On a number of occasions I have been quizzed at length about liberal attitudes to relationships in developed countries. I was from another planet. These were normal young men to whom I had the utmost respect. I would trust them with my life. They were clean, disciplined and honest. The iron fist of the Mosque had its good side too. I once said to a mature Muslim man who was a retired general in the Jordanian army that one day the flood gates will open in Islam. The young will leave in droves. He simply would not and could not accept this.

Right now in China, great elaborate Buddhist temples are springing up, all funded by people trying to buy a better after life. Fear.

I openly resist the common advice here that to practice Zen we must regularly engage with a teacher and Sangha – that we cannot experience authentic realisation without a teacher. One of the most distinctive features of this practice is its emphasis on a personal encounter and the development of freedom of thought. Every sit by every individual is unique to which the teacher cannot truly relate. After the incident, it is gone. Good teachers know this. I have briefly engaged with a number of teachers in different ways. I have sat 4 sesshin. All were useful but would be useless should I not practice alone. Here is where progress is really made. Just you/me and a cushion, every day. Being completely alone is very special. Through this we learn that we are not alone at all.

This practice is simple. Learn how to sit Zazen and do it on a daily basis. Use a teacher and Sangha when it is practical to do so. For most of us this is not the case. And don’t think that teacher and Sangha are a magic formula. The weakest link is an inability to commit to home practice on a daily basis. That is hard. I stand guilty myself what with going 6 months without sitting at one time.

Sorry for the long letter

m


It's deeply appreciated- Thank you-
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Re: The consept of religion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:12 pm

mdd,

macdougdoug wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Evidently the founder had a realization of sorts

I heard that he was visited by an entity claiming to be the angel gabriel; not sure this is the same as realisation.

Hmm, yes. That may be what happened. And, no, I don't think anyone could properly call that 'realization'. Thanks.

And that sort of thing is always fraught with danger, I'd say.

Better to wake up, than to have private visitations, I mean. Otherwise, one feels oneself privileged, or "chosen", or special (I've never trusted or respected self-proclaimed "prophets"). And, one feels oneself to be an "I", and a very favored one, at that. :tongueincheek:

Well, awakening would be my preference, instead. "Visitations" seem part-and-parcel of odd psychological states, while awakening is the most ordinary yet wonderful openness and being-present, while adding nothing, naming nothing, and lacking nothing.

We can be sure that if, on sesshin, a student were to come into dokusan with a report of having had a "visitation", the teacher would almost certainly say:

    "Good; this kind of makyo (illusion) is a sign that your zazen is becoming deeper. Just ignore all illusions.
    Now, back to the Ch'an hall with you, and continue your practice! "

Unfortunately, there was evidently no such accomplished teacher in the vicinity at the time, and Muhammad by default remained at the level, unbeknownst to him, of such psychological illusion. And to describe his illusion, and ones to follow, he used the imagery of the two extant and reigning Abrahamic faiths of the time, thus also neither discovering nor adding anything novel (nor either allowing himself to have the experience of Shakyamuni Buddha, while being thus stuck at the illusion-mentality, makyo state of mind, having no compassionate friend who is competent (awake... ) to disabuse him of the apparent reality of its makings and of their allure).

On Islam's founder, I now have historian of religion Karen Armstrong's, MUHAMMAD (1991), a biography, and will give a read of what she represents about what may be more than legend of what is known after the intervening 1400 years.

:Namaste:,

--Joe

p.s. (In my reply, I fixed the attribution of quotation in your reply to show my screen-name, not Dennis' ).
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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