Welcome admin !

It is currently Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:27 am
Pathway:  Board index Welcome to Zen Forum International Feedback & Support

Anonymity and Trolling.

For constructive feedback and support questions concerning ZFI.

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Guo Gu on Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:57 am

catching up on certain threads and found this one...

personally i feel that non-anonymity may help in encouraging people to take responsibility in what they post in this forum, but it's not a guarantee. as many people have expressed, some people may not feel comfortable revealing their identity.

the issue here may not be anonymity or non-anonymity, but trolling. yet, i don't see trolling or trollers (not sure if i'm using the word correctly) on this forum. i see a very few number of people asking different questions but not accept others' suggestions. but that's fine. i don't see a problem with that at all. i'm not familiar enough with online forums to comment but my impression is that the so-called "trolls" or "trollers" on other social medias/forums/blogs, etc. usually post many hurtful things. folks do get annoyed with each others' posts, but people get annoyed with others in real life. do we block them out of our life or do we use the opportunity as practice? if people are annoyed, don't bother responding. i say that in the context of this forum specifically. again, i don't feel members here are saying hurtful things, using inflammatory words, or being insincere. we may not agree with certain views, but we can't assume that the poster is a troller because their views are different. they may be quite sincere in sharing their own experience. using words like trolling or troller for any member here, i feel, do more damage than good.

the issue here is how to establish a shared sense of ethics in posting to make this forum a friendly and helpful community, how to post with a sensitivity towards other members. challenging questions and debates are part of a healthy forum. most people here share this sense of ethics. we should try to help those who do not yet have share this sensitivity. we don't just ban them! we don't give up trying.

this reminds me of a chan story. one time a mob of monks complained to the chan master abbot that certain so and so was doing something unethical--i think the monk in question stole something--and wanted to have him expelled. the master said, "if you want to kick him out then you'll have to kick me out too." when asked why, the master said, "all of you already know right from wrong but that monk doesn't. if no one wants to teach him, then i will." the monk was moved to tears and changed his ways. the point: people don't change necessarily because of external rules or pressures; people change because they're moved or inspired to change, because they want to change.


we're all growing and learning together here, and nothing remains the same. yet in this process, what kind of forum ethics do we want to propose? what kind of online zen community do we want to have? since people's views are divided on whether someone is a troller or not, on what grounds do we judge others?

more words to add to the entangling vines... :ninja:
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.com/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
User avatar
Guo Gu
Teacher
 
Posts: 1245
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:52 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:16 am

:lol2: I have had a goodly number of posts deleted. :blush: The odd thing is that they almost always ones that I felt were in no way provocative. Others, where I am getting a bit terse, are accepted :blush:

I do like the dynamics here. I did follow another forum for a while but soon discovered everyone was agreeing and patting each other on the back. Nothing wrong in that, but it did not fee real to me. Chan/Zen history is chocker block full of challenges and disagreements. Its healthy IMO.

It all comes down to: 'Its not what you say, its how you say it' Joking can get one into real trouble too. Each culture has its own slant on humour. It does not export well. I once quipped that I liked Soto because I could sit and do nothing. Man, did I get a towel-up - from a teacher too :lol2:

There is a real art to being here in a meaningful way. Its a tightrope.


Cheers

m
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3578
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Jugglesaurus on Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:51 am

You can challenge the Ask A Teacher responses, actually - start a topic thread on the question in another relevant forum. I'm sure I've seen that done. Not so much to individually pick at a response (I don't think it would be cool to start a general topic about how you think someone's answer sucked), but for everyone to discuss their views on the topic etc.
I think of it like those advice columns you used to get way back before the interwebnet - maybe someone wants an answer from an expert in a subject, so they write to a magazine or whatever, and the question and answer get published. You ask a question, you get an answer without a bunch of other people chiming in. Kind of like a mondo, I guess. You don't get to pipe up from the sidelines and say "actually I think you are SO WRONG," but it's not like everyone doesn't talk about the questions afterwards.
When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
User avatar
Jugglesaurus
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:31 pm
Location: London

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby PeterB on Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:03 am

As a sympatico Non-Zennist all I can say is that the reason for my logging on to ZFI is the Ask A Teacher forum.
Its certainly not to read the circular discussions of those like myself who are on the periphery, with no Zen teacher.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:31 am
Location: Near London

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Michaeljc on Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:16 am

:)
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3578
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Kojip on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:55 pm

Guo Gu wrote:catching up on certain threads and found this one...

personally i feel that non-anonymity may help in encouraging people to take responsibility in what they post in this forum, but it's not a guarantee. as many people have expressed, some people may not feel comfortable revealing their identity.

the issue here may not be anonymity or non-anonymity, but trolling. yet, i don't see trolling or trollers (not sure if i'm using the word correctly) on this forum. i see a very few number of people asking different questions but not accept others' suggestions. but that's fine. i don't see a problem with that at all. i'm not familiar enough with online forums to comment but my impression is that the so-called "trolls" or "trollers" on other social medias/forums/blogs, etc. usually post many hurtful things. folks do get annoyed with each others' posts, but people get annoyed with others in real life. do we block them out of our life or do we use the opportunity as practice? if people are annoyed, don't bother responding. i say that in the context of this forum specifically. again, i don't feel members here are saying hurtful things, using inflammatory words, or being insincere. we may not agree with certain views, but we can't assume that the poster is a troller because their views are different. they may be quite sincere in sharing their own experience. using words like trolling or troller for any member here, i feel, do more damage than good.

the issue here is how to establish a shared sense of ethics in posting to make this forum a friendly and helpful community, how to post with a sensitivity towards other members. challenging questions and debates are part of a healthy forum. most people here share this sense of ethics. we should try to help those who do not yet have share this sensitivity. we don't just ban them! we don't give up trying.

this reminds me of a chan story. one time a mob of monks complained to the chan master abbot that certain so and so was doing something unethical--i think the monk in question stole something--and wanted to have him expelled. the master said, "if you want to kick him out then you'll have to kick me out too." when asked why, the master said, "all of you already know right from wrong but that monk doesn't. if no one wants to teach him, then i will." the monk was moved to tears and changed his ways. the point: people don't change necessarily because of external rules or pressures; people change because they're moved or inspired to change, because they want to change.

we're all growing and learning together here, and nothing remains the same. yet in this process, what kind of forum ethics do we want to propose? what kind of online zen community do we want to have? since people's views are divided on whether someone is a troller or not, on what grounds do we judge others?

more words to add to the entangling vines... :ninja:
guo gu


Hi Guo Gu. The way you talk and listen to people here, giving a respectful ear to everyone, throws my own arrogance into sharp relief. All kinds of people come to this board. Some seem "serious", some seem eccentric or have odd ideas. You are a busy teacher, yet you engage everyone here as legitimate and worthwhile. Thank you .
User avatar
Kojip
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:38 pm

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Guo Gu on Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:08 am

Kojip wrote:Hi Guo Gu. The way you talk and listen to people here, giving a respectful ear to everyone, throws my own arrogance into sharp relief. All kinds of people come to this board. Some seem "serious", some seem eccentric or have odd ideas. You are a busy teacher, yet you engage everyone here as legitimate and worthwhile. Thank you .


thank you. i'm just sharing and learning here.
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.com/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
User avatar
Guo Gu
Teacher
 
Posts: 1245
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:52 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:11 am

PeterB wrote:As a sympatico Non-Zennist all I can say is that the reason for my logging on to ZFI is the Ask A Teacher forum.
Its certainly not to read the circular discussions of those like myself who are on the periphery, with no Zen teacher.


I have never done it before but I am thinking of posting a poll. The definition relating to 'no Zen Teacher' can be multi-fold,

Having:

- A formal student:teacher relationship

- Regular contact with a teacher but not as a formal student

- Irregular contact with a number of teachers

- Never had a personal contact with a teacher

Under this poll contact through the internet does not qualify as a personal contact
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3578
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby PeterB on Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:48 am

That might be interesting Michael.
It won't have any bearing on the way that I use the forum however.
Which is that my interest is in the views and experiences of those in a personal relationship with recognised Zen teacher.
Just as in the tradition I follow my interest is in those who have a personal relationship with a Staretz.
Other people utilise the forum for other reasons.

:Namaste:
PeterB
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:31 am
Location: Near London

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:27 am

You may have a problem. I suspect most who are intensively involved as an accepted student will say very little about it, or even admit that they have a formal teacher.
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3578
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby PeterB on Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:55 am

No problem. A little concentrate is in my eyes superior to a lake of subjectivity.

I think in any case you may not be correct about the willingness of Zen students as a whole to talk about their experiences. There are other Zen forums where that happens freely.
I think the culture of a forum is shaped quite early in its history and will reflect the interests of its most frequent posters.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:31 am
Location: Near London

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Michaeljc on Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:04 am

Mmm - reading behind the posts is what keeps me here. It has been great seeing how some of the younger contributors (and others) gradually (and sometimes abruptly) change over time.

Re non-disclosure: I am referring to full-time committed students. Most will not be on a forum.
User avatar
Michaeljc
 
Posts: 3578
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm
Location: Raglan New Zealand

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Jugglesaurus on Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:55 am

Michaeljc wrote:You may have a problem. I suspect most who are intensively involved as an accepted student will say very little about it, or even admit that they have a formal teacher.


I don't know what you mean by "accepted" and "intensively involved," could you elaborate? We have a whole subforum where people post about formal practice, though, which is by definition with a teacher and sangha. I don't think anybody's going to hide their involvement.
When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
User avatar
Jugglesaurus
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:31 pm
Location: London

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby PeterB on Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:20 am

Michaeljc wrote:Mmm - reading behind the posts is what keeps me here. It has been great seeing how some of the younger contributors (and others) gradually (and sometimes abruptly) change over time.

Re non-disclosure: I am referring to full-time committed students. Most will not be on a forum.

I could direct you to forums where full time committed Zen students ( by anyone's criteria..including nuns and monks ) post frequently.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:31 am
Location: Near London

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Kojip on Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:30 pm

PeterB wrote:No problem. A little concentrate is in my eyes superior to a lake of subjectivity.

I think in any case you may not be correct about the willingness of Zen students as a whole to talk about their experiences. There are other Zen forums where that happens freely.
I think the culture of a forum is shaped quite early in its history and will reflect the interests of its most frequent posters.


Practice isn't black and white.... where you are either a disciple of a master, or an outsider offering only subjectivity. What a narrow stream that would be. Buddhism is wider than that, and it is not esoteric. That doesn't mean anything goes, and the Dharma is whatever suits taste, but it is not the property of any lineage either. Things tend to be polarized in that way on a forum like this, where there can be so many claims made out of the anonymous blue. A teacher representing a lineage is an anchor of credibility.
User avatar
Kojip
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:38 pm

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby PeterB on Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:05 pm

I can only speak for myself...for my subjectivity. And I would not use a spatial metaphor which revolves around narrowness, rather I would speak instead of depth.
Neither have I any interest in esotericism. I do retain an interest in Zen of whatever lineage, as long as it is of a lineage.
I have no interest in Zen influenced ideas merely. Because I do not think that they lead to that place where all streams meet.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:31 am
Location: Near London

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Kojip on Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:13 pm

Depth then. In my own subjectivity practice deepens with the guidance ( or more truthfully the example) of a teacher, and the support of a sangha. The place where all streams meet is closer than I think.
User avatar
Kojip
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:38 pm

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby PeterB on Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:53 pm

I would agree. I thinks its an apparent paradox..that is in fact quite logical really..that the motherlode is discovered by following a tradition and teacher consistently. To the place where all paths meet.
The idea that one can simply invent one's own path leads in my experience to isolation and diffusion.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:31 am
Location: Near London

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby [james] on Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:21 pm

Guo Gu wrote:catching up on certain threads and found this one...

personally i feel that non-anonymity may help in encouraging people to take responsibility in what they post in this forum, but it's not a guarantee. as many people have expressed, some people may not feel comfortable revealing their identity.

the issue here may not be anonymity or non-anonymity, but trolling. yet, i don't see trolling or trollers (not sure if i'm using the word correctly) on this forum. i see a very few number of people asking different questions but not accept others' suggestions. but that's fine. i don't see a problem with that at all. i'm not familiar enough with online forums to comment but my impression is that the so-called "trolls" or "trollers" on other social medias/forums/blogs, etc. usually post many hurtful things. folks do get annoyed with each others' posts, but people get annoyed with others in real life. do we block them out of our life or do we use the opportunity as practice? if people are annoyed, don't bother responding. i say that in the context of this forum specifically. again, i don't feel members here are saying hurtful things, using inflammatory words, or being insincere. we may not agree with certain views, but we can't assume that the poster is a troller because their views are different. they may be quite sincere in sharing their own experience. using words like trolling or troller for any member here, i feel, do more damage than good.

the issue here is how to establish a shared sense of ethics in posting to make this forum a friendly and helpful community, how to post with a sensitivity towards other members. challenging questions and debates are part of a healthy forum. most people here share this sense of ethics. we should try to help those who do not yet have share this sensitivity. we don't just ban them! we don't give up trying.

this reminds me of a chan story. one time a mob of monks complained to the chan master abbot that certain so and so was doing something unethical--i think the monk in question stole something--and wanted to have him expelled. the master said, "if you want to kick him out then you'll have to kick me out too." when asked why, the master said, "all of you already know right from wrong but that monk doesn't. if no one wants to teach him, then i will." the monk was moved to tears and changed his ways. the point: people don't change necessarily because of external rules or pressures; people change because they're moved or inspired to change, because they want to change.


we're all growing and learning together here, and nothing remains the same. yet in this process, what kind of forum ethics do we want to propose? what kind of online zen community do we want to have? since people's views are divided on whether someone is a troller or not, on what grounds do we judge others?

more words to add to the entangling vines... :ninja:
guo gu


The difference here is that the the alleged troller has been beaten up and chased "out of town" and our resident troll hunters have calmed down and moved on to other worthy matters. Colour me cynical perhaps, but the words " Things are not as they seem nor are they otherwise" are very fitting here.

As for forum ethics, I would suggest a welcoming assumption of the sincerity of all peaceful posts. We can't know much about anyone posting on this forum, regardless what personal information is provided by individual members. Whatever we think we can glean and put together to create a mental image of who we are "listening and talking to" is really only a self serving fabrication. "Troller" is another label that we use to isolate those whose views and expressions conflict with our own. To my understanding labelling of this (or any other ) kind is contrary to a spirit openness and welcoming community, which seems to be what most people want.

james
User avatar
[james]
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 am

Re: Anonymity and Trolling.

Postby Pedestrian on Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:55 pm

Jugglesaurus wrote:
Michaeljc wrote:You may have a problem. I suspect most who are intensively involved as an accepted student will say very little about it, or even admit that they have a formal teacher.


I don't know what you mean by "accepted" and "intensively involved," could you elaborate? We have a whole subforum where people post about formal practice, though, which is by definition with a teacher and sangha. I don't think anybody's going to hide their involvement.


What the juggler said. ;)
"Buddha, to liberate beings, cultivates practices everywhere." Avatamsaka Sutra.

Chris Seishi Amirault
Pedestrian
Benevolent Street Sangha
User avatar
Pedestrian
 
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Rhode Island USA

PreviousNext

Return to Feedback & Support

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest