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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby macdougdoug on Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:22 pm

:heya:

I find it easier to understand what you're saying these days too :lol2:
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby fukasetsu on Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:33 pm

It takes two to tango ;)

But that's a rarity understanding what I'm saying,
you might have some expedient means for others to attain that rarity too? :lol2:
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:23 pm

again me, lol, sry...
macdougdoug ,
1) moderation here is top, thats that.
2) caballero con guitarra!! LOL, ur chick so fine.. im jealous!! lol
3) Facebook and such...great idea!
As Jundo is setting up another site that about settles it...good!
Spike
the need for fair and steadfast moderation

i just cant agree there is a mod prob here
(how in the world do you replace C & G, or minimize their past importance?)

conquer attachments? who is talking about replacing or minimizing C andG?
Mostly middle-aged, or sixties, as per most sanghas imo

seasoned zennies have a lot 2 offer, newbies just raise same questions
same opinion of ur second post. lets look into the future a bit..
i was wrong, not 3, we're very lucky to have 4 teachers !!
b :heya:
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Spike on Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:55 pm

bokki wrote:again me, lol, sry...


This brief comment really says a lot. This has become a theme with you, as you've said before that you recognize overusing your "nick". Is this honesty, humility/false humility, etc. For example, according to your Activity statistic, you are averaging one post per day. I average .07. Deedub averages 3.47. If one post per day is too much, why, and what would be better/healthy?

bokki wrote:1) moderation here is top, thats that.


No, that is not that, if chief moderator is resigning due to stated conflict aversion. Obviously, some people feel deeply about their pov, and will argue as such. Moderation must be able to deal with this skillfully, and this is probably not easy.

bokki wrote:As Jundo is setting up another site that about settles it...good!


Agree 100%. It may be the perfect venue for yourself and others. (But, of course, maybe not for some zfi types/loyalists ...)

bokki wrote:i just cant agree there is a mod prob here.


See above.

Spike wrote:(how in the world do you replace C & G, or minimize their past importance?)


bokki wrote:conquer attachments?


It would be misleading to assume a personal attachment here, when the argument is really a well-deserved encomium to the founders, and their uniqueness.

bokki wrote:who is talking about replacing or minimizing C andG?


Bokki: Carol and Gregory have stepped down from an active role on this site. In a recent post, Deedub clearly minimized/disrespected Gregory's most recent contribution, and got widespread blowback...

Spike wrote:Mostly middle-aged, or sixties, as per most sanghas imo


bokki wrote:seasoned zennies have a lot 2 offer, newbies just raise same questions


I resemble that remark!
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When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow. --R.H.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Dan74 on Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:52 am

Spike wrote:
bokki wrote:1) moderation here is top, thats that.


No, that is not that, if chief moderator is resigning due to stated conflict aversion. Obviously, some people feel deeply about their pov, and will argue as such. Moderation must be able to deal with this skillfully, and this is probably not easy.



I agree.

Moderation is not easy at all. Of course light-touch moderation is in a way ideal, but only works if the forum is basically working very well. If there are members who monopolise and derail discussion, lecture and denigrate others, a light-touch may not suffice.

Over at DW, at one stage we wrote a mass email to past members of good standing who stopped participating to

1. Tell them their contributions were valued and are missed
2. Ask them to take another look at the Forum and consider participating
3. If not, ask for their feedback as to how to improve the Forum, ie what would it take to make it a place worth participating

I think a few did respond.

_/|\_
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:55 am

hi Spike, these r my stats

Joined:Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:06 pm
Last visited:Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:00 pm
Total posts:237 |
Show your posts : (1.03 posts per day / 0.13% of all posts)
Most active forum: Feedback & Support (52 Posts / 21.94% of your posts)
Most active topic: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum (51 Posts / 21.52% of your posts)

i really would not research other members stats, i dont care, (unless its a poker game, where id b all over ur stats :tongueincheek: ) but i would b pleased if u posted more

i still dont c a prob with mod here
M is entitled 2 his view and decision

and yes bout my nick, i dont like it all over the place, but thats due to few mmbrs posting, i would like 2 c more, thats y a quarter of my posts r here

Spike, its always my pleasure to talk to You!
b :heya:
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Spike on Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:46 pm

bokki wrote:
Spike, its always my pleasure to talk to You!
b :heya:


The same to you, bokki!
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Nor wind to blow. --R.H.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Meido on Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:40 pm

Dan74 wrote:Moderation is not easy at all. Of course light-touch moderation is in a way ideal, but only works if the forum is basically working very well. If there are members who monopolise and derail discussion, lecture and denigrate others, a light-touch may not suffice.


Good points.

The most common mod job, it seems: keeping threads on-topic, including splitting them if necessary as they veer away from the subject of the OP. We could use a bit of that practice here (I am among the offending parties).

Am I mistaken in seeing macdougdoug as the only currently active moderator? I would think we'd need at least 3 or 4, ideally coached by former moderators familiar with the challenges of the job.

A good moderator "culture," when it takes root, does wonders for a forum. That is what I see as having been accomplished at DW.

~ Meido
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:04 pm

M.,

Meido wrote:That is what I see as having been accomplished at DW.

"DW". Tentatively, well, OK. "Desert_Woodworker", or?

I hope I don't have to take ultimate responsibility. After all, I am just "Joe", a practitioner. Yet, maybe I could make good, given sympathetic ears.

Best!, All,

--Joe
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Spike on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:03 pm

desert_woodworker wrote: Yet, maybe I could make good, given sympathetic ears.

Pathos engenders sympathy. You must be on the right track. Try to post more. I'm sure you will achieve your goal.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:04 am

(Spike, in view of cultural differences and your questioning
bokki wrote:
again me, lol, sry...
This brief comment really says a lot. This has become a theme with you, as you've said before that you recognize overusing your "nick". Is this honesty, humility/false humility, etc. For example, according to your Activity statistic, you are averaging one post per day. I average .07. Deedub averages 3.47. If one post per day is too much, why, and what would be better/healthy?

and
Spike, its always my pleasure to talk to You!
b :heya:
The same to you, bokki!

i am now wondering have i somehow unintentionaly offended you, since you question my honesty and maybe have the impression that i am falsly humble? what do you mean when you say that my " again me, lol, sry..." says a lot. y is that false?
i would like to post 3 times a day, but said i dont like my nick all over the place, how come this comes over as strange 2 u?
in my culture, saying "the same to you " means someone is slightly offended, and returns the small offense. do u really think that my expressing pleasure was false? and as Dan also asked me am i sincere, and said he thinks im playing, could you point out to where im going wrong in my communication so as to convey such impressions and try to correct it? thnx )

i think we already have a few good ideas, now that the continuation of zfi is ascertained..
1 trying to reach out trough face and other such sites
2 reaching to older members as dan suggested
3 light moderation and splitting topics if the metadiscussion becomes too much
4 using the ask a teacher fora more often
5 caodemarte suggested cross threading, if i understood well, with blogs of prominent members
6 engaging teachers like Eunsahn108 that occasionally post to post teachings and engage, came to my mind

i still dont think there is a problem with moderation here, off topic posting is a small price to pay for free and inspired communication, and my opinion is a small site as zfi is at the moment in terms of participation, and the self moderation of members, 1 mod is enough, but i really dont know. my feeling, i could be wrong, that zfi is a welcoming place.
b
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby jundo on Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:29 am

The moderation of DW is often very good, but also an example of precisely what not to do, for it tolerates intolerance, overlooks hate speech, silences civil and soft spoken dissenting opinions in waves of attack and cries of "you are not a real Buddhist"!

The only way to get along is to not challenge, keep quiet if disagreeing on certain hot button topics (such as certain views on rebirth), remaining either silent or presenting conservative models that do not make waves or ruffle fundamentalist feathers.

For example, a good example is the reaction to the following opinions expressed by liberal and skeptical me on "Hara" in the Zen Section (the question "How does the idea of hara relate to Zen?") ...

I was one of several voices, not the only voice, but most comments in the "Zen" section were from non-Zen practitioners who jumped in ...

JUNDO COMMENTS:

I believe that hara/tanden is largely a fiction, the body's general "center of gravity" if anything. Placing the mind "on the hara" is nothing wrong, because one needs to place attention someplace ... might as well be there, in that core region of the body. A martial artist might also say there is much benefit to moving from such a core region.

However, I do not actually believe that there is anything there that functions, as once was believed (and still believed by many folks), as an organ of the equally non-existent system of ki/chi flow. It is an old wives' tale of traditional Chinese medicine.

... it is truly good to bring the mind to some central, quiet point in the body such as the Hara, the breath, the palm of the hand. As the mind settles through doing so, such sensations as you describe will naturally arise.

I rather doubt it is due to some magical property of the "Hara" itself however.

...

I wonder what proof there is that it is real. I do not mean anecdotal proof, such as "I feel something when I concentrate there." I mean concrete proof for its existence. Can it be found in the human anatomy?


Now, one can agree or disagree with my opinion, and I might be quite wrong. That is not the point, but rather, the response to civil and quiet presentation of skepticism is the point. Responses included many such as these as a small example (and I have no objection to these, by the way, just folks expressing their disagreement with my view in strong tones) ...

You [Jundo] just practice so bull-zen because those are very basics realizations.

...

To assert in a doctrinaire way that such things don't "really" exist (whatever that means), in the face of centuries of their effective use by practitioners whose depth of understanding is far greater than one's own is not only screaming chutzpah, as I said before, it betokens a very very crude worldview. ...


Several much worse ad hominem and personal attacks on my character were made and then removed by the moderators (the above were the relatively nice ones left by the moderators ;) ), which I believe was right for them to do. Moderator comment:

Much OT and ad hom nonsense removed - and some just-plain-nonsense nonsense too.
Please stay on topic as you resume the discussion.


BUT, then the Administrator also wrote me and told me that I would not be allowed to express my skepticism in the Zen section because the mere stating of such viewpoints was stirring up the natives to make their personal attacks! (Let me add that I had been told by Administrators when they let me back in some weeks earlier that I would only be allowed if I remained in the Zen section and did not come out.) I closed with this ...

Although this is in the Zen section and I (believe) I am the only Zen clergy here, I have been told I cannot comment further. I have to accept Hara, I have been told, and cannot disagree or offer an alternative possibility regarding its nature.

Gassho, Jundo

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=329224#p329224


I respectfully submit that such is not a good policy of moderation. The attackEE, a Zen priest in the Zen section, is punished for merely expressing a skeptical viewpoint because it riles the conservative and closely held views of others, many or most of whom are not even Zen Practitioners.

I present this example solely to show what should not be done. In any forum I managed, civil and polite opinions both for and against "Hara" would be allowed, both those who believe and those who are skeptical, so long as people are polite to each other in tone.

Of course, Zen practitioners and priests who personally believe in Hara can get along fine at DW by either agreeing, expressing non-questioning or otherwise acceptable viewpoints or simply by being silent while allowing dominant viewpoints and voices to carry the day.

Gassho, Jundo
Last edited by jundo on Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:38 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:11 am

In football (soccer) we always say a referee has to whistle in the spirit of the game and not always by the book,
moderation also doesnt work strictly by following rules, especially since like in sports the refs only sees the 2nd foul.

It's so ironic to see people get reprimended for "flaming" whilst they got flamed for a 100+ posts themselves, that usually happens when a moderator is not online much, has little knowledge of the members psyche or predispositions and then visits a thread due to a report and gets it "all wrong", I think currently moderating personal attacks on ZFI is almost undoable for its often subtle but some members keep picking on each other any chance they get, on the other hand you'd expect ppl to on a forum like this to have some skills as looking at oneself instead of critisizing others or practise kindness despite of whatever vexation arises.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:42 pm

hi,
all imo
a few more ideas in the direction of reviving zfi. there could be a blog with chosen posts or parts of discussions, something like a bit of "best of". we should have a democratic pol fora, where members could check boxes wit opinions ranging from dogen or hakuin, moderation policies, dharma or practice choices, all kinds of opinion, miss zen universe or whatever, that would be fun, and could inform the management of prevalent opinion of members. technically, zfi could modernize while keeping the same format, where little things could be changed to facilitate ease of use, also the waves pic in headline of zfi could change, or even change every month or two.
do u have some ideas too???
in light of the above ill add to the list i posted

1 trying to reach out trough face and other such sites
2 reaching to older members as dan suggested
3 light moderation and splitting topics if the meta discussion becomes too much
4 using the ask a teacher fora more often
5 caodemarte suggested cross threading, if i understood well, with blogs of prominent members
6 engaging teachers like Eunsahn108 that occasionally post to post teachings and engage, came to my mind
7 form a zfi blog
8 form a democratic pol fora
9 enhance it technically
if any1 has some idea please add!
b
(PS macdougdoug, or any1, is ther a "photographs by members" thread here, where any member can post photos they took that have even the smallest smell of zen though everything smells of zen 2 me, id like to post there, if there is not i may start such a topic, members have beautiful pics)
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby partofit22 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:45 pm

bokki wrote:hi,
all imo
a few more ideas in the direction of reviving zfi. there could be a blog with chosen posts or parts of discussions, something like a bit of "best of". we should have a democratic pol fora, where members could check boxes wit opinions ranging from dogen or hakuin, moderation policies, dharma or practice choices, all kinds of opinion, miss zen universe or whatever, that would be fun, and could inform the management of prevalent opinion of members. technically, zfi could modernize while keeping the same format, where little things could be changed to facilitate ease of use, also the waves pic in headline of zfi could change, or even change every month or two.
do u have some ideas too???
in light of the above ill add to the list i posted

1 trying to reach out trough face and other such sites
2 reaching to older members as dan suggested
3 light moderation and splitting topics if the meta discussion becomes too much
4 using the ask a teacher fora more often
5 caodemarte suggested cross threading, if i understood well, with blogs of prominent members
6 engaging teachers like Eunsahn108 that occasionally post to post teachings and engage, came to my mind
7 form a zfi blog
8 form a democratic pol fora
9 enhance it technically
if any1 has some idea please add!
b
(PS macdougdoug, or any1, is ther a "photographs by members" thread here, where any member can post photos they took that have even the smallest smell of zen though everything smells of zen 2 me, id like to post there, if there is not i may start such a topic, members have beautiful pics)


http://www.zenforuminternational.org//viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4673&hilit=photos&start=120

:)
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:06 pm

thank you partofit!
but LOL LOL im sooo technically challenged i cant upload pics from my comp,even from ingur... although trying 4 1/2 hour now....LOL, ive uploaded a few pics to here, now i just cant, i forgot how! lol!
btw, great photos!.... can any1 explain a simple way? lol
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby partofit22 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:19 pm

boki.jpg
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:09 pm

thnx partofit, but why cant this and some other threads be seen unless 1 is loged in?
why? is it a police of admin or a member can choose to hide his topic? how is that done? thank you for your help, the pic was with you in mind. thnx
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby partofit22 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:11 am

bokki wrote:thnx partofit, but why cant this and some other threads be seen unless 1 is loged in?
why? is it a police of admin or a member can choose to hide his topic? how is that done? thank you for your help, the pic was with you in mind. thnx


You're welcome- :) I don't know why some threads are visible and some are not unless logged in -- but I'm sure someone knows ..
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:35 am

yes, partofit, im sure the mod knows..thnx again..
well im going to critique the technical format of zfi a bit.
1. what a depressing color uv got going here..the designer was prob color blind, choosing a bland beige green..lol, how about white red blue idk, crimson...lol
2. active topics are my starting point and when i finish reading the page i have to scroll back, since the only options at the bottom page are to return to board index or the fora u r in.
3. every time 1 logs in, the first thing he should see is the "post a new topic" button
4...5....6...
the forum format is too old, too old, give a kick, a good one!
but im sure, im positive, 100% certain, that nothing will happen out of this thread..
the ownership will be transfered, and everything will stay the same..as if we did not fill 15 pages, half of which were used by rev j spike and m questioning..
its the old adage, if u want 1 to sit, say "stand", hes sure to sit
so the more we yap, the less will be done.
had we been silent someone would have wondered and done something...
as if the moderation is the problem here, lol
having said that, i wonder too...
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