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Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby jundo on Mon May 29, 2017 2:57 am

Dear All,

I wonder if there are ways to revive Zen Forum International, attract Practitioners and Teachers from a variety of respected Zen Lineages and Traditions, and return this Forum to its original mission.

I believe that said original mission was to encourage "the study and practice of Zen Buddhism." I believe that the original vision was of a place where Zen Buddhists of many flavors ... Chan, Son, Thien, Zen, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese, Rinzai, Obaku and Soto, doctrinal liberals and staunch conservatives, traditionalists and modernizers, priest and lay and whatever is beyond all that ... could all come and engage in respectful communion, mutual support in our Practice, agreement and polite agreement to disagreement, civil and soft spoken debate on points while also allowing safe spaces for each to engage in their own flavors of belief among themselves. All "Zen" (using what has come to be the most well known umbrella term).

I am not sure the reasons that people have drifted away over the years. I am sure that there are many factors at work, and perhaps we can discuss those. What were the causes? What can we do to get folks back?

Presently, there is much activity at places like Facebook among Zen folks of all kinds of beliefs and practices. However, in my experience, the Facebook structure does not allow for the depth and "give and take" of discussion that a Forum structure allows. ZFI is too unique a resource in that regard, and needs to be tended like a good garden.

I would propose that, as a first step, (Step 1) recognized Teachers in each of the major Traditions and Lineages be invited and persuaded to come here and commit to take some active role, hopefully at least one and ideally more in each of the major Practice Traditions such as Chan, Son, Thien, Japanese Soto, Japanese Rinzai etc. They would be responsible, with the help of a team of moderators assisting in each of those sections, to make sure that discussion in each of those sections stays centered on, and respectful toward, the particular beliefs and practices of those flavors of Zen they represent.

There can still be a section or sections for people who consider themselves non-denominational, and wish to practice "without a teacher."

In other areas, general doctrinal and practice discussions could be held where we can all agree to sometimes agree and sometimes, with tolerance, agree to disagree even with opinions and beliefs far from our own. Moderators there would tolerate wide opinions, so long as they were respectfully expressed in "this is just my belief, I honor the path of others who disagree, this is just one view ... " fashion.

People coming here to represent themselves as Teachers and/or Priests must be able to show some level of paperwork, respect and recognition as such in the wider Zen Community in order to represent and function in such roles here.

Once that structure is established, (Step 2) various friendly approaches, notice postings and invitations would be made in a variety of locations directed to Zen Buddhists throughout the Buddhist interwebs to come back, give this place another shot.

Of course, the other sections of the Forum where all kinds of discussions, on science and society, from the serious to the silly, are free to happen. There could be places discussing other religious traditions so long as they intersect with the central focus of this place on Zen Buddhism (there are countless other places on the internet to discuss other things).

The focus of this place should again become serious Zen Buddhist (and some secular expressions of Zen Buddhism) Practice and Talking in a serious way.

That is my proposal, and the direction I would like to work toward, thinking of the future of Zen Forum International.

Gassho, Jundo Cohen
Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 29, 2017 6:19 am

Jundo,

Good to see your post.

I'd favor actions that focus attention on the Zen Buddhist orientation of ZFI and its mission, and I have been favoring this and trying to give it a push regularly.

I also enjoy that there is cross-discussion as well with other streams of Buddhadharma, especially when a relevance to Zen Buddhist practice or tradition is clear and intended.

I don't feel that outreach to departed ex-members is so necessary, at least not an explicit outreach. Should such folks visit the forum again and wish to rejoin or join in, great. My point is that there are many fish in the sea, and it's not necessary nor even wise to go pointedly after "the ones that got away".

I don't object, but some may object -- will object -- to a movement to bring a staff or faculty of Zen Buddhist teachers on board to orient things or to create sub-populations of discussion or relationships. That kind of fragmentation or specialization may happen anyway -- has happened -- but I'm not sure I'd like the result if it were exhorted to happen, or develop. Those who will object in the first instance will almost certainly not like the result (but, on the other hand, they may be surprised!).

The teachers who grace the board and have graced it have been a compassionate panel who answer(ed) directed questions, and start or join general threads. It may be that their number has dwindled somewhat, but we know that in the case of one teacher, the reason may be primarily due to retirement from teaching and abbacy.

In general, I'd always like to see ZFI function more along the lines of discussion of Zen Buddhist practice, and tradition. And on doings that are afoot in Western (or Eastern) sanghas that may bring useful change for Zen Buddhist practitioners, sanghas, and teachers. I'm also interested in doings that take care for the continuance of Zen Buddhist lineages, and Buddhadharma generally (especially in the West: I feel that the East has been taking care of itself without intermittence, despite the notable change of increased popularity at some depth of Buddhadharma in the West, compared with a claimed steep decline by some in the East).

More discussion or presentation, too, please!, All!, of what genuinely saves Beings.

As we approach Memorial Day in the US,

best regards, Jundo, best regards All,

--Joe
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby partofit22 on Mon May 29, 2017 6:39 am

jundo wrote:Dear All,

I am not sure the reasons that people have drifted away over the years. I am sure that there are many factors at work, and perhaps we can discuss those. What were the causes? What can we do to get folks back?


Hi, Jundo- :heya:

I think it's next to impossible for a forum to be successful, any forum, Zen Buddhist or not, without the use of filters/guidelines and mods that stay on top of things in part because members assume responsibility for hitting the report button- It's not uncommon for threads to drift off topic time and again but when members themselves become the subject time and again by way of being subjected to unnecessary, personal, derogatory comments then forum activity dwindles- There's plenty of evidence of what I've described above in recent and older threads dating back years -- between Zen Buddhist practitioners as well as between the non-Zens and Zens .. too-

If you really just want :tee: serious discussion from people who are practicing formally then simply close the doors to all who cannot prove that they are practicing within the Zen tradition- It's as easy as that- Really- But that alone won't get to the root of the drifting- Maybe a culling from your own bunch would breathe life back into ZFI .. -- that and encouraging friendly combat instead of simply letting the serious among you participate without pause or use of much needed filters ..

I'll end with the president's latest Twitter post .. to drive my points home .. :)

"The Fake News Media works
hard at disparaging &
demeaning my use of social media
because they don't want America
to hear the real story!"
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby jundo on Mon May 29, 2017 11:24 am

partofit22 wrote:
I think it's next to impossible for a forum to be successful, any forum, Zen Buddhist or not, without the use of filters/guidelines and mods that stay on top of things in part because members assume responsibility for hitting the report button-


Hi,

Based on my 11 years of experience with Treeleaf Forum, I do not agree. Treeleaf hums along very smoothly with no moderators, and I have had to remove from membership maybe less than 1 person per year (for reasons usually involving fighting with other members, also very very rare. I do not know another internet forum with such a low suspension rate. We have an atmosphere basically without trolls, where people engage in civil and polite discussion ... although not always agreeing ... about both serious and not so serious issues).

Of course, Treeleaf is centered on one flavor of Soto Zen, but I believe the same methods of Forum organization can be spread to include civil and polite discussion ... including on matters of disagreement ... among serious Zen Buddhists of a variety of very different flavors.

What do we do at Treeleaf to allow that?

- (1) - First, people registering must explain why they wish to register. They must be either serious beginners, or serious experienced folks ... but they must be people who are serious and focused on their interest in Zen Buddhism. People cannot simply register out of curiosity, nor from New Age, Vedantic or other "almost Zen" traditions. The focus is Zen Buddhism. Likewise, the purported priests, teachers, instructors and the like must disclose their background, and show that they are serious and recognized, not self-proclaimed reincarnations of Maitreya or the like.

- (2) - Next, people can disagree on issues, but the one rule enforced is that they must speak in soft tones, couched always in "it is just my opinion and I could be wrong, others are entitled to their beliefs which I honor." In the more controversial sections, people can debate ideas (e.g., "I believe that their is no historical evidence for that assertion"), but not attack others (e,g. "I believe that such idea is foolish and so are you.") This difference must not be confused in moderating the forum (it often has been in the past). In the "common cross-tradition" discussion areas, people can discuss, debate and disagree on anything ... but they must be calm and polite and "it is just my view, I am not the last word and could be wrong" in doing so. People understand, and their is zero tolerance after a warning or two.

- (3) - Priests in each area ... Japanese Rinzai, Soto, Son, etc. ... would basically supervise and keep things on track there, and outsiders are not allowed. Nobody who is ABC can, for examples, go into the XYZ section and tell the XYZ people why their XYZ beliefs are wrong. XYZ section is only for XYZ folks. Of course, in the common cross-tradition sections, ABC folks can debate and disagree with XYZ folks, so long as it is done in a calm voice and without attacking the person, only the idea. They can, in those sections, call my own or anyone's most cherished ideas wrong and misguided ... so long as they say "in my opinion, here is why, I could be wrong."

And that is basically it. Rules are simple.

Good management makes for a good forum. I put to you that, in the past, that is not quite what happened here (or on some other Buddhist forums, Facebook pages and the like).

I have been doing so for 11 years, Treeleaf runs smoothly ... I know. All that is necessary is to expand to include a variety of Lineages and Traditions, in a manner that is fair, civil and welcoming.

Gassho, Jundo

-
Last edited by jundo on Mon May 29, 2017 12:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby jundo on Mon May 29, 2017 11:34 am

And by the way, in case it is not clear ... I am basically putting forth my candidacy to take over management of this place if Michael decides, as he has sometimes said, that he does not wish to continue.

In the alternative, if that is not possible, I may begin myself a new version of Zen Forum International, open to serious Zen folks of all flavors, that will attempt to do things in a way that is right, healthy and fair to all.

I don't want to hide what is on the back of my mind here.

Gassho, Jundo
Founder Treeleaf Zendo, Japan. Member SZBA. Treeleaf is an online Sangha for those unable to commute to a Sangha, w/ netcast Zazen, interaction with other practitioners and teachers & all activities of a Soto Sangha, fully online without charge (http://www.treeleaf.org) Nishijima/Niwa
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Mon May 29, 2017 1:05 pm

Thank you very very much, Reverend Jundo, for your kind thoughts.
(though i think this q is well raised, imho, i really think that a few days should b left 4 considering consultations)
As long this stays a Zen International Forum and not someones dojo i fully agree to all you wise cats decide to do, im all in.
Although i think its up to Greg and Carol to decide about ZFI.

imho ZFI rocks full for a decade or 2.
and Thank You 2 all who have been, are now, or will be here.

love u all

just decide with patience and tolerance.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby jundo on Mon May 29, 2017 1:22 pm

bokki wrote:Thank you very very much, Reverend Jundo, for your kind thoughts.
(though i think this q is well raised, imho, i really think that a few days should b left 4 considering consultations)
As long this stays a Zen International Forum and not someones dojo i fully agree to all you wise cats decide to do, im all in.
Although i think its up to Greg and Carol to decide about ZFI.

imho ZFI rocks full for a decade or 2.
and Thank You 2 all who have been, are now, or will be here.

love u all

just decide with patience and tolerance.


Yes, just to emphasize ... it would not be "Soto Zen", certainly would not be "Jundo" ...

People could disagree 180 degrees with my personal views or way of Practice, so long as they are civil and polite in doing so. It would be a place for people to agree, and a place for people to softly and civilly agree to really REALLY disagree,

It would be maintained as a resource for all serious Zen Buddhists to come, commune and share. A place for serious Zen Buddhists of all flavors.

Gassho, J
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 29, 2017 4:36 pm

Jundo,

No, I don't think I'd like to see you take over management of ZFI. I know that Michael does not want to manage it, and neither do I, but I don't think I'd welcome the sweeping changes you have in mind.

Although the other board you operate may operate smoothly, as you write, I can't see a need for a second one like it.

ZFI is special because of the range of topics in its headline areas, and because of the range of threads already recorded in it.

"Problems" at ZFI have arisen in the years while I have been a member (after the time that I understand you were once removed for, what?, "conduct unbecoming"?) specifically for this reason: some folks have tried to represent and popularize their "manifestos" as representations of Zen Buddhism, which they clearly did not qualify as, and some others of us had tried to discredit such representations. Teachers who chimed-in to steer these folks to reality were even slandered by these folks. Although a lot of good Buddhadharma and history was shared with the errant folks and all the board, it was clumsy when no control could be exerted by mere-members on the folks irrationally spreading slander on the Dharma and on the realities of genuine Zen Buddhist practice and doctrine.

An alert and experienced Zen Buddhist-practitioner-moderator would have rapidly recognized that the manifesto-thumpers were off-base, and spreading dangerous rumors. The thumpers should thus have been warned early-on by someone in charge, and if they persisted in "thumping" and slandering, should have been removed. This would have obviated members (ourselves) trying to talk the poor thumpers down ourselves. A long period intervened when there was virtually NO moderator presence at ZFI, and so some cases like this lasted too long. Eventually, such folk were blessedly removed before ZFI went under new management.

So, my modest proposal is to continue ZFI as it is, and to make sure that we actually have Zen Buddhist practitioner moderators (and maybe Owner(s) ), so that b.s. is sure to be detected early when it is being promulgated by New-Agers, etc., and "sold" as Zen Buddhism. This would ensure that the board remains Zen Buddhist in focus, and relatively unpolluted by forgers, fakers, and ...fakirs.

I'd guess you're probably busy-enough, with your sangha. And again, I see no need to duplicate the other board you run, at least not at ZFI. Please go easy; get rest. Take care not to relapse: No more pneumonia, now!

With respect,

In the Dharma,

--Joe
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby partofit22 on Mon May 29, 2017 7:46 pm

jundo wrote:
partofit22 wrote:
I think it's next to impossible for a forum to be successful, any forum, Zen Buddhist or not, without the use of filters/guidelines and mods that stay on top of things in part because members assume responsibility for hitting the report button-


Hi,

Based on my 11 years of experience with Treeleaf Forum, I do not agree. Treeleaf hums along very smoothly with no moderators, and I have had to remove from membership maybe less than 1 person per year (for reasons usually involving fighting with other members, also very very rare. I do not know another internet forum with such a low suspension rate. We have an atmosphere basically without trolls, where people engage in civil and polite discussion ... although not always agreeing ... about both serious and not so serious issues).

Of course, Treeleaf is centered on one flavor of Soto Zen, but I believe the same methods of Forum organization can be spread to include civil and polite discussion ... including on matters of disagreement ... among serious Zen Buddhists of a variety of very different flavors.

What do we do at Treeleaf to allow that?

- (1) - First, people registering must explain why they wish to register. They must be either serious beginners, or serious experienced folks ... but they must be people who are serious and focused on their interest in Zen Buddhism. People cannot simply register out of curiosity, nor from New Age, Vedantic or other "almost Zen" traditions. The focus is Zen Buddhism. Likewise, the purported priests, teachers, instructors and the like must disclose their background, and show that they are serious and recognized, not self-proclaimed reincarnations of Maitreya or the like.

- (2) - Next, people can disagree on issues, but the one rule enforced is that they must speak in soft tones, couched always in "it is just my opinion and I could be wrong, others are entitled to their beliefs which I honor." In the more controversial sections, people can debate ideas (e.g., "I believe that their is no historical evidence for that assertion"), but not attack others (e,g. "I believe that such idea is foolish and so are you.") This difference must not be confused in moderating the forum (it often has been in the past). In the "common cross-tradition" discussion areas, people can discuss, debate and disagree on anything ... but they must be calm and polite and "it is just my view, I am not the last word and could be wrong" in doing so. People understand, and their is zero tolerance after a warning or two.

- (3) - Priests in each area ... Japanese Rinzai, Soto, Son, etc. ... would basically supervise and keep things on track there, and outsiders are not allowed. Nobody who is ABC can, for examples, go into the XYZ section and tell the XYZ people why their XYZ beliefs are wrong. XYZ section is only for XYZ folks. Of course, in the common cross-tradition sections, ABC folks can debate and disagree with XYZ folks, so long as it is done in a calm voice and without attacking the person, only the idea. They can, in those sections, call my own or anyone's most cherished ideas wrong and misguided ... so long as they say "in my opinion, here is why, I could be wrong."

And that is basically it. Rules are simple.

Good management makes for a good forum. I put to you that, in the past, that is not quite what happened here (or on some other Buddhist forums, Facebook pages and the like).

I have been doing so for 11 years, Treeleaf runs smoothly ... I know. All that is necessary is to expand to include a variety of Lineages and Traditions, in a manner that is fair, civil and welcoming.

Gassho, Jundo

-


Good afternoon!

At this time I personally see no reason why your forum structure wouldn't work for any given site regardless of interest/topic- But according to the description of your format, from where I sit, it does appear that your site is supported by guidelines, rules and moderation -- self moderation in the form civil discussion as well as removal of members by you- That's overseeing a site- And as a rule that's considered moderating -- regardless of how often or infrequent-

Should you take over and make the suggested changes I wish you the very best of luck! Effort/s to keep this site alive is, I think, beneficial- Even if fakers like myself would no longer be allowed, it wouldn't hinder my "interest"- I've benefited from this site as it currently is as well as through all of it's past conditions-
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby jundo on Mon May 29, 2017 7:57 pm

Hi Joe,

I do not want to hide my intent. I believe that the English language Zen world needs a place in the general direction I described where all flavors of Zen Buddhists can come together for substantial interchange. This was the original vision of ZFI. It does not have to be under my auspices, and maybe it should not be and I am not the best person to do so. But if such a place does not come to exist soon, I will help make such a place. (I do not want to hide that).

It can be a place for serious Zen practitioners of many flavors to come together, in communion as well as in safe spaces for their own Traditions. But there would be a series of checks and membership requirements (such as a requirement that people's descriptions of their own practice be in the infield of some flavor of an active Zen Buddhism practice, and not out in left field), guidance in many (not all) areas of the forum by recognized teachers in that Lineage of Zen Buddhism, and a general requirement of strict civility and politeness even when folks debate and very much disagree, People with a serious interest in Zen Practice should feel safe and welcome there, free to agree to (sometimes really really) disagree.

There would also be editorial separation and openness, and it would not be about "Soto Zen" or the owner's (if me) personal Practice. The model I have in mind is Lion's Roar, and their publications Shambhala Sun and Bodhidharma. Although Lion's Roar is under the ownership and control of folks connected to Trungpa's Lineage, it is not much or unfairly about Trungpa. Many respected voices in the Buddhist world are present and represented in their editorial policy, and their is basically equal treatment.

I think that many many of the older generation of Zen Teachers still don't understand this "internet thing", but there are enough quality younger and hipper (like me? :blush: ) teachers in all the major traditions that I bet I can find people who will have the interest, time and energy to come on board if the conditions are right to shepherd their respective practice tradition areas.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - To clarify, I agree that we have "moderation" at Treeleaf, but it is with a light hand within firm parameters: Basically, "speak politely, although about anything, if one is a serious practitioner of Zen Buddhism (in our case, Soto)"
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby partofit22 on Mon May 29, 2017 8:10 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Jundo,

No, I don't think I'd like to see you take over management of ZFI. I know that Michael does not want to manage it, and neither do I, but I don't think I'd welcome the sweeping changes you have in mind.

Although the other board you operate may operate smoothly, as you write, I can't see a need for a second one like it.

ZFI is special because of the range of topics in its headline areas, and because of the range of threads already recorded in it.

"Problems" at ZFI have arisen in the years while I have been a member (after the time that I understand you were once removed for, what?, "conduct unbecoming"?) specifically for this reason: some folks have tried to represent and popularize their "manifestos" as representations of Zen Buddhism, which they clearly did not qualify as, and some others of us had tried to discredit such representations. Teachers who chimed-in to steer these folks to reality were even slandered by these folks. Although a lot of good Buddhadharma and history was shared with the errant folks and all the board, it was clumsy when no control could be exerted by mere-members on the folks irrationally spreading slander on the Dharma and on the realities of genuine Zen Buddhist practice and doctrine.

An alert and experienced Zen Buddhist-practitioner-moderator would have rapidly recognized that the manifesto-thumpers were off-base, and spreading dangerous rumors. The thumpers should thus have been warned early-on by someone in charge, and if they persisted in "thumping" and slandering, should have been removed. This would have obviated members (ourselves) trying to talk the poor thumpers down ourselves. A long period intervened when there was virtually NO moderator presence at ZFI, and so some cases like this lasted too long. Eventually, such folk were blessedly removed before ZFI went under new management.

So, my modest proposal is to continue ZFI as it is, and to make sure that we actually have Zen Buddhist practitioner moderators (and maybe Owner(s) ), so that b.s. is sure to be detected early when it is being promulgated by New-Agers, etc., and "sold" as Zen Buddhism. This would ensure that the board remains Zen Buddhist in focus, and relatively unpolluted by forgers, fakers, and ...fakirs.

I'd guess you're probably busy-enough, with your sangha. And again, I see no need to duplicate the other board you run, at least not at ZFI. Please go easy; get rest. Take care not to relapse: No more pneumonia, now!

With respect,

In the Dharma,

--Joe


Many sites are similar in structure but each has it's own unique flavor that attracts some but not others -- and allows some but not others- In a nutshell, that appears to describe the type of site you would like ZFI to become according to the description you offered above- Which doesn't appear to be much of a departure from what Jundo proposed-

My main gripe, at any site, has been the same over the course of 2 decades of participating in forums- And that gripe is personal attacks- Across the boards- It happens at every site but considerably less where the members doing the attacking are addressed- To say that personal attacks on this site were restricted to fakers, those with only an interest, those who are deeply suffering and did not include those practicing traditionally would be untrue- With that in mind, ZFI as it stands, doesn't stand a chance of presenting a welcoming environment-
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby jundo on Mon May 29, 2017 8:25 pm

Yes, there would be zero tolerance (after a warning or two) on personal attacks.

However, people would also have to learn the difference between "personal attack" and evidence based intellectual disagreement, civil debate, calm expressions of doubt and disbelief in an idea, skepticism and "in my view" criticism and diverging opinion. That is not "personal attack." Saying "I do not believe at all in your deeply held and cherished belief, and there is a lot of strong evidence against it, but I could be wrong and I honor your right to believe what you wish no matter how much I think it is wrong" is not "personal attack" in a general discussion area of a forum.

Fortunately, a firm line can be drawn between the two in editorial and moderation policy, as we have done at Treeleaf.

Unfortunately, in this age of internet trolling and the present western political scene where everything is "fake news" "throw the dissenters out" and "lock her up", we have lost an understanding of what it means to calmly debate issues and "agree to disagree."

Gassho, Jundo
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby bokki on Tue May 30, 2017 12:54 am

hm, i would like to repeat
that i think this is an EXTREMELY interesting proposition, one that could go south
or result into new colors

so, y not fill this thread with ideas and decide later with ease

but, by the way your discriminations are going now, J,
it looks like that
by being the captain of this ship of fools,
you'll throw one of us overboard.

i could go on
and say 2 much
but ill b on ur side
even if u address me personally

y didn't u come up with this earlier?
did this idea fall into your lap unexpectedly?
questions multiply rapidly,
but i hope we will discus this in ease,
by taking our time, please.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 30, 2017 1:21 am

Jundo,

jundo wrote:I do not want to hide my intent. I believe that the English language Zen world needs a place in the general direction I described where all flavors of Zen Buddhists can come together for substantial interchange.

I'd encourage you to do this at any speed that may suit your schedule. I do not believe it should be at ZFI, though. I'd encourage you to start from scratch with a fresh slate and a site with a different name, URL, hosting arrangement, etc.

Regards and wishes,

--Joe
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 30, 2017 1:24 am

p., T.,

partofit22 wrote: With that in mind, ZFI as it stands, doesn't stand a chance of presenting a welcoming environment-

With respect, the naysayers who repeat such dubious things as this are not helping, and have not been helping.

--Joe
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 30, 2017 1:27 am

Jundo,

jundo wrote:Unfortunately, in this age of internet trolling and the present western political scene where everything is "fake news" "throw the dissenters out" and "lock her up", we have lost an understanding of what it means to calmly debate issues and "agree to disagree."

Some people have lost it. "Let's" not go overboard while going out on a limb.

--Joe
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby partofit22 on Tue May 30, 2017 4:24 am

desert_woodworker wrote:p., T.,

partofit22 wrote: With that in mind, ZFI as it stands, doesn't stand a chance of presenting a welcoming environment-

With respect, the naysayers who repeat such dubious things as this are not helping, and have not been helping.

--Joe


I think every post presents an opportunity to consider anothers view and each also presents an opportunity to respond considerately even if one, or more, strongly disagrees- But I do not think 20+ years on the job, or whatnot, provides anyone with a license to be abusive- I doubt most find it inviting and believe saying so is worth repeating -- time and again-
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 30, 2017 5:21 am

p., T.,

partofit22 wrote:I think every post presents an opportunity to consider anothers view and each also presents an opportunity to respond considerately even if one, or more, strongly disagrees- But I do not think 20+ years on the job, or whatnot, provides anyone with a license to be abusive- I doubt most find it inviting and believe saying so is worth repeating -- time and again-

Well, I think your disappointments and experiences elsewhere on the web, which you make a point of mentioning, are not reason to drag that mindset here to this place, too. If the kind of discussion and heat here is not to your liking, then this may not be your kind of Kitchen. I'd keep that load of disappointment aloof from polluting relations and interactions here. If it's a personal problem, work on it personally. The welcoming that is at ZFI is in the ZFI mission-statement. If you haven't read it recently, it has to do with promoting discussion of Zen Buddhism, especially. And I, for one, think that's appropriate for a forum and board with the words "Zen Forum" in its name.

I agree that you have no explicit right to be abusive, despite the 20 years of something you mention, but that goes without saying.

If discussion of Zen Buddhism is not after all your thing, then, well, you're just a troll. Looking for what, I won't guess.

w/ Regards,

--Joe
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue May 30, 2017 5:34 am

Jundo,

jundo wrote:I do not want to hide my intent.

Very suspiciously phrased.

Frankly, I don't believe it's appropriate for you to have an intent.

Not about ZFI.

Again, I'd encourage you to start the forum you're imagining afresh, from the start, somewhere. Elsewhere. I think everyone here would support your doing that. And why not.

--Joe
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Re: Ways of Reviving ZFI as a Zen Buddhist Forum

Postby Michaeljc on Tue May 30, 2017 6:59 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Jundo,

jundo wrote:I do not want to hide my intent.

Very suspiciously phrased.

Frankly, I don't believe it's appropriate for you to have an intent.

Not about ZFI.

Again, I'd encourage you to start the forum you're imagining afresh, from the start, somewhere. Elsewhere. I think everyone here would support your doing that. And why not.

--Joe


Gee Joe, what rattled your cage?

Go find a good Cuban cigar, brew up up a strong pot of real coffee and enjoy! :heya:
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