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Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

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Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Zen Pete on Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:31 pm

Hi All,

I'd like to ask for a democratic vote on removing the 'ask a teacher' section on this forum.

I posted a critique of teachers and zen masters on the ' soto teacher' post.....it has been removed!
[Moderator's Note: it has been moved here.]

It was a very ordinary post where I recommended that the op should avoid contact with any 'so called teachers' because the teachers and zen masters in this forum don't have a clue about the basics of Zen.
In fact their responses are misleading to a fault!

They are unable to answer simple questions like:
what is dualism?
What is the root cause of suffering?
How do you free your mind?
What is Zen?
What purpose does meditation serve?

If you want to learn all about the rituals, bowing, incantations , then ask one of the Zen masters on here...

If you want to learn about Zen itself, ask someone in the beginners section!

Should the teachers and zen masters section be closed?
a definite YES.....they are misleading dozens of students!
'Zen will Free your Mind'
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Zen Pete on Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:59 pm

I would just like to add that there are some real 'nasty' personalities in the teacher section. They have no business being here on the forum.

I am a simple person, I invoke buddhist karma; let their nastiness be reflected back on themselves wrecking and destroying their own lives....

( I have come here at the request of a former member).

Be simple, be Zen!
'Zen will Free your Mind'
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby littletsu on Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:00 pm

I would vote against your proposal.
There are quite a few members who only come here to read the ASK A TEACHER section, I can assure you of that
right away.
合うは別れの始めだ。
有燈就有人。
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Zen Pete on Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:12 pm

littletsu wrote:I would vote against your proposal.
There are quite a few members who only come here to read the ASK A TEACHER section, I can assure you of that
right away.


Hi,

I can see you're a little bit of a free spirit!

I'm sure you wouldn't mislead students, you'd say to them' what do you think?'

Zen by its nature is anti establishment!
Zen by its nature is free form!
Zen by its nature has no rituals!
Zen wears no robes!

So alI see here is the status quo and entrenched views.
'Zen will Free your Mind'
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Seeker242 on Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:31 pm

Zen Pete wrote:Hi All,

I'd like to ask for a democratic vote on removing the 'ask a teacher' section on this forum.



Vote to keep!

:Namaste:
Kill a cat, with a dried shit stick, under a cypress tree in the courtyard, while eating three pounds of flax! Only a cow goes Moooo!
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Anders on Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:41 pm

Vote to keep. :peace:
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Chrisd on Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:19 pm

This sounds like fun! I vote for dancing :dance:
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Zen Pete on Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:24 pm

Chrisd wrote:This sounds like fun! I vote for dancing :dance:


You may be dancing; I'm biting my tongue!

Will buddhist karma work?
Which teachers are going to leave?
'Zen will Free your Mind'
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby fukasetsu on Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:27 pm

Zen Pete wrote:I'd like to ask for a democratic vote on removing the 'ask a teacher' section on this forum.


Not inclined either way.

ps the adding and removing you wish to do is dependent on the tendency to follow/shape your own mental picture,
whether you call it "conscious" or "unconscious" it is just that same ideal (unconscious, ironically) mental picture

It's not worth granting any more attention then sand between shaky fingers. :peace:
Everyone for President!
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Caodemarte on Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:43 pm

Vote to keep.
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby macdougdoug on Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:21 pm

Dear Zen Pete

Those who think that the teachers are horrible and dangerous, in fact suffer the same illness as those who think that the teachers are magical and fantastic.

Both already know that what the teacher says is ______ (fill in the blank eg. wonderful/rubbish) communication is therefore impossible.
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Avisitor on Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:42 pm

Unless one has gone through the experience of Kensho and following up with more practice
Then, one can not possibly say with any authority that one person or another is qualified or not to teach.
With the experiences comes the wisdom and the compassion to aid others along this path
And of course there will be those who ardently, vehemently, fervently believe in their own brand of Buddhism
They will also defend their beliefs no matter what evidence is presented.

So, I believe that "Ask a Teacher" section be kept
If for no other reason than the sensitivity and kindness that I have seen posted there ... also,
The wisdom dispensed there seems (to me) to come from the personal experience of opening one's mind and heart.
Thanks for listening.
Last edited by Avisitor on Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Zen Pete on Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:47 pm

Thanks for all your responses.

This forum had a dark cloud hanging over it, eminating from the teacher section.
I'm glad to report that Buddhism karma has started to work its magic...... :) :) :)

This place is starting to feel open and free again.

Negative energy is very harmful to people visiting this forum, and the ring of nasties are now destroying their own lives, not ours! :lol2:

I would like to say there are some very nice kind people on the teacher section, and a group of totally horrid people.

Looking forward to see what Buddhism karma can achieve in the real world. :)
'Zen will Free your Mind'
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Ted Biringer on Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:42 pm

Zen Pete wrote:Hi All,

I'd like to ask for a democratic vote on removing the 'ask a teacher' section on this forum.
...Snip...
...I recommended that the op should avoid contact with any 'so called teachers' because the teachers and zen masters in this forum don't have a clue about the basics of Zen.
In fact their responses are misleading to a fault!

They are unable to answer simple questions like:
what is dualism?
What is the root cause of suffering?
How do you free your mind?
What is Zen?
What purpose does meditation serve?

If you want to learn all about the rituals, bowing, incantations , then ask one of the Zen masters on here...

If you want to learn about Zen itself, ask someone in the beginners section!

Should the teachers and zen masters section be closed?
a definite YES.....they are misleading dozens of students!


Hello Zen Pete,

Thank you for your post.

While I do question the reasoning of having an "ask a teacher" section that is exclusive to "certified teachers" ("certification" can hardly be seriously regarded as a reliable guide for identifying dependable teachers) - the notion that authentic Zen liberation could be actualized in the absence of authentic teachings (hence, teachers) is simply irrational.

Zen master Joshu said, "If I find a 100 year old man that can learn from me, I will be that man's teacher. If I find a seven year old child that can teach me, I will become that child's disciple." This statement, in my view, perfectly exemplifies the nature and role of teachers and students in Zen Buddhism. What genuine Zen student would not offer guidance (teach) to one that could benefit from them? What genuine Zen teacher would not learn from a student that offered some real insight?

You wrote: "If you want to learn about Zen itself, ask someone in the beginners section!" - Yes! I agree, Zen Pete is a good teacher here offering a good teaching. Ultimately we must each awaken and verify the truth on our own (without a teacher) - however, we cannot verify anything without learning what there is to verify by our encounter with teachings (hence with teachers). Besides, have you ever encountered a teacher that is truly "other than" you?

Here are a few more "teachings" on "teachers" that I have found to be reliable in my experience:

When I was journeying, I didn’t choose communities on the basis of whether or not they had material provisions; I was only concerned with seeing whether their perception indicated some capacity. If so, then I might stay for a summer or a winter; but if they were low-minded, I’d leave in two or three days. Although I called on more than sixty prominent teachers, barely one or two had great perception. The rest hardly had real true knowledge—they just want your donations.
Ta-sui, Teachings of Zen, Thomas Cleary

If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But without the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help.

If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.
The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, Red Pine

What I teach everyone in these talks of mine is the unborn Buddha-mind of illuminative wisdom, nothing else. Everyone is endowed with this Buddha-mind, only they don’t know it. My reason for coming and speaking to you like this is to make it known to you.
Bankei, The Unborn, Norman Waddell

All that’s important is concentrated focus, purity, and stillness. Even when you are engaged in doing things, this is not something external. Take hold of them and return them to your true self—this is what wondrous function is. The eighty thousand sensory afflictions are immediately transformed into eighty thousand means of transcendence, and there is no more need to make a special point of studying with teachers. In your daily activities you deliver countless numbers of sentient beings and accomplish countless enlightening works and pass through countless gates of the Dharma. It all flows out from within your own breast—how could there be any other?
Yuanwu, Zen Letters, Thomas Cleary

Thanks again.

Please treasure yourself.
Ted
Do not misunderstand Buddhism by believing the erroneous principle ‘a special tradition outside the scriptures.’ Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo, Bukkyo (trans. Hee-Jin Kim)
Ted Biringer Author The Flatbed Sutra
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby [james] on Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:11 am

We all have a natural awareness, referred to above in Ted Biringer's quote of Bodhi Dharma. So what harm can come of being influenced by each others awareness in some sort of student/teacher encounter? None. Only the benefits increasing our understanding through the encouragements of another who maybe, sort of, speaks a similar language. In such a meeting each of us is student and each is teacher regardless how we otherwise identify ourself or each other. It seems entirely possible to me that you, Zen Pete, and Zen Teacher Nonin, could have a rich and mutually beneficial friendship of sorts. What do you say?
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby [james] on Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:17 am

Zen Pete wrote:Thanks for all your responses.

Looking forward to see what Buddhism karma can achieve in the real world. :)


Not necessary to look forward.
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Zen Pete on Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:27 am

Ted Biringer wrote:
Zen Pete wrote:Hi All,

I'd like to ask for a democratic vote on removing the 'ask a teacher' section on this forum.
...Snip...
...I recommended that the op should avoid contact with any 'so called teachers' because the teachers and zen masters in this forum don't have a clue about the basics of Zen.
In fact their responses are misleading to a fault!

They are unable to answer simple questions like:
what is dualism?
What is the root cause of suffering?
How do you free your mind?
What is Zen?
What purpose does meditation serve?

If you want to learn all about the rituals, bowing, incantations , then ask one of the Zen masters on here...

If you want to learn about Zen itself, ask someone in the beginners section!

Should the teachers and zen masters section be closed?
a definite YES.....they are misleading dozens of students!


Hello Zen Pete,

Thank you for your post.

While I do question the reasoning of having an "ask a teacher" section that is exclusive to "certified teachers" ("certification" can hardly be seriously regarded as a reliable guide for identifying dependable teachers) - the notion that authentic Zen liberation could be actualized in the absence of authentic teachings (hence, teachers) is simply irrational.

Zen master Joshu said, "If I find a 100 year old man that can learn from me, I will be that man's teacher. If I find a seven year old child that can teach me, I will become that child's disciple." This statement, in my view, perfectly exemplifies the nature and role of teachers and students in Zen Buddhism. What genuine Zen student would not offer guidance (teach) to one that could benefit from them? What genuine Zen teacher would not learn from a student that offered some real insight?

You wrote: "If you want to learn about Zen itself, ask someone in the beginners section!" - Yes! I agree, Zen Pete is a good teacher here offering a good teaching. Ultimately we must each awaken and verify the truth on our own (without a teacher) - however, we cannot verify anything without learning what there is to verify by our encounter with teachings (hence with teachers). Besides, have you ever encountered a teacher that is truly "other than" you?

Here are a few more "teachings" on "teachers" that I have found to be reliable in my experience:

When I was journeying, I didn’t choose communities on the basis of whether or not they had material provisions; I was only concerned with seeing whether their perception indicated some capacity. If so, then I might stay for a summer or a winter; but if they were low-minded, I’d leave in two or three days. Although I called on more than sixty prominent teachers, barely one or two had great perception. The rest hardly had real true knowledge—they just want your donations.
Ta-sui, Teachings of Zen, Thomas Cleary

If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But without the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help.

If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.
The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, Red Pine

What I teach everyone in these talks of mine is the unborn Buddha-mind of illuminative wisdom, nothing else. Everyone is endowed with this Buddha-mind, only they don’t know it. My reason for coming and speaking to you like this is to make it known to you.
Bankei, The Unborn, Norman Waddell

All that’s important is concentrated focus, purity, and stillness. Even when you are engaged in doing things, this is not something external. Take hold of them and return them to your true self—this is what wondrous function is. The eighty thousand sensory afflictions are immediately transformed into eighty thousand means of transcendence, and there is no more need to make a special point of studying with teachers. In your daily activities you deliver countless numbers of sentient beings and accomplish countless enlightening works and pass through countless gates of the Dharma. It all flows out from within your own breast—how could there be any other?
Yuanwu, Zen Letters, Thomas Cleary

Thanks again.

Please treasure yourself.
Ted



Thanks for your insights. A very illuminating post. :)
'Zen will Free your Mind'
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Zen Pete on Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:38 am

[james] wrote:We all have a natural awareness, referred to above in Ted Biringer's quote of Bodhi Dharma. So what harm can come of being influenced by each others awareness in some sort of student/teacher encounter? None. Only the benefits increasing our understanding through the encouragements of another who maybe, sort of, speaks a similar language. In such a meeting each of us is student and each is teacher regardless how we otherwise identify ourself or each other. It seems entirely possible to me that you, Zen Pete, and Zen Teacher Nonin, could have a rich and mutually beneficial friendship of sorts. What do you say?


Zen teacher and Master Nonin is the diametrically opposed to me.
I am the exact opposite of him.

Everything he is, I am not!
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby Zen Pete on Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:43 am

[james] wrote:
Zen Pete wrote:Thanks for all your responses.

Looking forward to see what Buddhism karma can achieve in the real world. :)


Not necessary to look forward.


Too true!

It reminds me of anarchists who say ' let's join up a start a club''......

My worry is the malignant influence the teachers have on new students; it's all very distasteful and nasty.
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Re: Remove ' ask a teacher' section....

Postby [james] on Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:46 am

Perhaps, as a balance to the "ask a teacher" section, there might also be a place where any ZFI member could be addressed, as a teacher or student, a question or a statement arising from the requester's current awareness and realization of this. Addressed with the hope that the ZFI member whose reflection was sought would respond from the depths of her and his conviction and compassion. You know, Buddha to Buddha. Is that possible on/in a forum like this. I sometimes think so and you, Zenpete, support that impression.
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