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Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:44 am

Gregory Wonderwheel wrote:I had never seen this term "CMA" before either. If it refers to "the perception, accumulation, recall, and association of data in our brain" then it is not a Buddhist term. Sounds like neuropsychiatry, not even psychology, unless the perverted neuropsychology which is really neurophysiology, not psychology.
Nirvana is not "conscious mental inactivity," so I don't know where that came from either. Sounds like someone's misunderstanding of Buddha Dharma.


Rather than just dismissing it, understand it is just the way he has interpreted what he has learned
It may not be right. But he is here .. that's a start
Talk with him instead of at him.

Sorry for my impertinence,rudeness
Don't know what got into me ... maybe it was that fifth cup of coffee ... :coffee:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:35 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Michael,

Michaeljc wrote:Hee heeeee

Now, now. Pull-EASE don't disclose the momentous and portentous stuff that transpired in Dokusan.

I mean, no, seriously, don't!

There may be, well, ...who knows?, a-"listening".

Everybody deserves their own "go".

:Namaste:,

--Joe


Joe - that's a very good question

I always prefer to prepare people for the worst, like in the marriage topic :)

No Brownie badges come from out the Docusan room

Hee hee :lol2:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:47 am

M.,

Michaeljc wrote:I always prefer to prepare people for the worst, like in the marriage topic :)

"Prepare" NOBODY, Jim.

Just like the guy who "prepared" YOU: NOBODY (especially if he was somebody).

Be consistent. True. Trust that all is to be well for the next generation. Let them encounter true practice afresh. Hands off!

Las Vegas is a POOR "second": What happens in Dokusan STAYS in Dokusan. Well, ideally, for all Beings. Eh?, eh?

No reply needed.

yours,

--Joe
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:55 am

Gee Joe, why so serious today? :heya:

I was expressing the irony in a general sense

and giggling :lol2:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:11 am

M.,

Gee, I'm always serious. Humor is a process that runs in the background and breaks-out when seriousness requires it.

BTW, 't ain't just YOU and ME, here. Others are reading over our shoulders. There's no way to prevent 'em reading.

What we discussed is the most serious of all.

What happens in dokusan stays in dokusan.

--Joe

Michaeljc wrote:Gee Joe, why so serious today? :heya:

I was expressing the irony in a general sense

and giggling :lol2:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:38 am

still giggling here Joe

- sorry

Ya are not gett'n it - I am generalising and jesting

Read deeper :heya:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:45 am

Michael,

Done "readin' ".

Michael, and others: don't mess with Dokusan, and other practitioners coming to formal and correct practice.

--Joe

Michaeljc wrote:still giggling here Joe

- sorry

Ya are not gett'n it - I am generalising and jesting

Read deeper :heya:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:55 am

I will deal with my/our Docusan as I see fit at any one time

The teachers with whom I have worked would have no gripe with what I have written here

This I know

You are in uncharted waters Joe

You cannot relate to our humour

That's the problem

No worries :hugs:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:58 am

Michael,

Of course you'll deal with dokusan. Will you ever have another one?

Humor is Jake with me.

Practitioners! Go to dokusan with no fixed ideas, humorous or otherwise.

No problem, in these finite waters.

--Joe

Michaeljc wrote:I will deal with my/our Docusan as I see fit at any one time

The teachers with whom I have worked would have no gripe with what I have written here

This I know

You are in uncharted waters Joe

You cannot relate to our humour

That's the problem

No worries
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:06 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Practitioners! Go to dokusan with no fixed ideas, humorous or otherwise.

There is usually only one thought in mind ... dread of having to answer that question ...
"Do you have anything to say?"


Wow coffee can really keep one wound up and going .... :coffee:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:17 am

Yes, and what I have described is just a present-day example of what we see often in the written record: an encounter between student and teacher:

"What have you got to say for yourself?"

"Nothing teacher" (her/his experience is beyond words)

"Speak, speak or 40 blows!"

" I experienced .............."

"You worthless skinbag, why do you speak such rubbish? - get out of here or 40 blows!"

It is all so beautifully Zen/Chan

This is why I laugh at my own experience

And - clearly these personal encounters were reported throughout history
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:28 am

Long before I found Buddhism or Zen... my root teacher with no tradition behind him except his own experience told this story, Back in the day (maybe 70=80's, in the time of great opening) He was to speak at a gathering... he found himself on stage, checking in, and then announcing that "tonight, I have nothing to say" and so it ended. What could be more free.
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:38 am

Linda - Dogen did this often: one wave of the wisp then gone :lol2:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:50 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Michael,

Michaeljc wrote:Hee heeeee

Now, now. Pull-EASE don't disclose the momentous and portentous stuff that transpired in Dokusan.

I mean, no, seriously, don't!

There may be, well, ...who knows?, a-"listening".

Everybody deserves their own "go".

:Namaste:,

--Joe


To quote my beloved friend... Michael, "you are a card".... (and quite correct) :lol2:

Everybody will get their own go at it... regardless of what they hear or what is said. :lol2:

at the end of the day, it's all roses
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby chankin1937 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:22 pm

Gregory Wonderwheel
I had never seen this term "CMA" before either. If it refers to "the perception, accumulation, recall, and association of data in our brain" then it is not a Buddhist term. Sounds like neuropsychiatry, not even psychology, unless the perverted neuropsychology which is really neurophysiology, not psychology.


Hello Gregory Wonderwheel,
The current understanding of Zen is couched in terms that are at best vague and at worst wrong. They are based on the work of a man who wrote nothing down that has survived and had his work commented upon five hundred years after his death. The Zen Masters who understood what its all about apparently wrote in a code that can only be understood by those who already know what its all about! Even the nature of Nirvana itself is debated.
What I am attempting to do is express true Zen in modern terms. I am attempting a clinical precision that leaves no room for confusion. “Abstain from CMA” is equivalent to :
Dogen’s "Cut off thought” and “Being without thoughts”
Seng Ts'an’s “only cease to cherish opinions."
Rosen Takashina Roshi’s " Being without thoughts”
Hsi Yun ‘s “eliminate all analytical thinking”
Huang po’s “put an end to all forms of mentation.” And “put a stop to conceptual thought”
Ma-tsu ‘ "Only let a man exhaust all his thinking and imagining”
HUI HAI’s “nondwelling mind”
You may not have recognised it, but it is the essence of Zen. It is psychology, it does have a scientific basis otherwise what would it be? Religion? Myth? Magic?

Nirvana is not "conscious mental inactivity,"


Put another way , its awareness of a mind free of thoughts. And that feels like a mind full of bliss.
Add this to the psychology of the common human gaol which I have previously posted and we have a near perfect modern transmission. We could save the world.
Colin
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Michaeljc on Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:37 pm

Another new morning
Yesterday gone,
forever
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:50 pm

Michael,

Michaeljc wrote:And - clearly these personal encounters were reported throughout history

No reason to give further voice to that gossip. Let sleeping dogs lie (or let them tell the TRUTH, for a change :PP: ).

--Joe
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:00 pm

Av,

Avisitor wrote:There is usually only one thought in mind ... dread of having to answer that question ...
"Do you have anything to say?"

NEVER heard that question. I submit that you are reporting idiosyncratic ways of just one teacher, or lineage.

Sorry! Sorry, ALL!, to divulge that that question is not always asked. I'm just as bad as the rest of them. Burn this.

--Joe
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:51 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Avisitor wrote:There is usually only one thought in mind ... dread of having to answer that question ...
"Do you have anything to say?"

NEVER heard that question. I submit that you are reporting idiosyncratic ways of just one teacher, or lineage.

Sorry! Sorry, ALL!, to divulge that that question is not always asked. I'm just as bad as the rest of them. Burn this.

--Joe

One should know it is not always that exact question!!
Not everyone's experience will be exactly the same
Nor will "the talk" given by the teacher be the same for everyone
What kind of mind focuses on the words and not on the intent??

Does one wish to burn me with Colin??
These are dangerous times for people with other ideas and opinions
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:50 am

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Does one wish to burn me with Colin??
These are dangerous times for people with other ideas and opinions

Come, come, now. Burn my reply, disclosing that that question you mentioned is not always asked. You're safe.

--Joe
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