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Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:28 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Avisitor wrote:Does one wish to burn me with Colin??
These are dangerous times for people with other ideas and opinions

Come, come, now. Burn my reply, disclosing that that question you mentioned is not always asked. You're safe.

--Joe

One can only reveal what is known to oneself and sometimes not even that if there is no common experience between the two
If one speaks of stomach pains and trips to the bathroom would one know what it means??
Then how is it .. I speak of this from my view and one becomes over critical??
I am sorry that it doesn't jive with yours
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:05 pm

Av,

I don't get any of this (go ahead there, and sip a second coffee). I just jest that you -- and others -- burn my reply, that particular previous reply.

As you were, soldier! "At-ease".

--Joe

ps and the word is JIBE. Jive is something quite different. It's what we hear from Colin, e.g.

Avisitor wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Avisitor wrote:Does one wish to burn me with Colin??
These are dangerous times for people with other ideas and opinions

Come, come, now. Burn my reply, disclosing that that question you mentioned is not always asked. You're safe.

--Joe

One can only reveal what is known to oneself and sometimes not even that if there is no common experience between the two
If one speaks of stomach pains and trips to the bathroom would one know what it means??
Then how is it .. I speak of this from my view and one becomes over critical??
I am sorry that it doesn't jive with yours
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:24 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Put another way , its awareness of a mind free of thoughts. And that feels like a mind full of bliss.


Colin, it is not mind, nor things.
All you demonstrate is that mind cannot be used to get something (apart from) from mind.
Certainly not " Awareness"

What are you doing to be aware right now?
Differences are never in opposition.
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:20 am

Again focus upon words instead of intent??
Forever lost ...

desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

I don't get any of this (go ahead there, and sip a second coffee). I just jest that you -- and others -- burn my reply, that particular previous reply.

As you were, soldier! "At-ease".

--Joe

ps and the word is JIBE. Jive is something quite different. It's what we hear from Colin, e.g.





jibe - Wiktionary
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jibe
Wiktionary
"Jibe" and "jive" have been used interchangeably in the U.S. to indicate the concept "to agree or accord."

Slang ... or does one want to define this to the minutest detail??
Try a "jibe" is a sail on a boat??
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:29 am

Av,

Well, I'm just an imperfect person, "doing the best I can, so positively". Which reminds me... . --Joe



THE KINKS

"A Well Respected Man"

'Cause he gets up in the morning,
And he goes to work at nine,
And he comes back home at five-thirty,
Gets the same train every time.
'Cause his world is built 'round punctuality,
It never fails.

And he's oh, so good,
And he's oh, so fine,
And he's oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He's a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively.

And his mother goes to meetings,
While his father pulls the maid,
And she stirs the tea with councilors,
While discussing foreign trade,
And she passes looks, as well as bills
At every suave young man

'Cause he's oh, so good,
And he's oh, so fine,
And he's oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He's a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively.

And he likes his own backyard,
And he likes his fags the best,
'Cause he's better than the rest,
And his own sweat smells the best,
And he hopes to grab his father's loot,
When Pater passes on.

'Cause he's oh, so good,
And he's oh, so fine,
And he's oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He's a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively.

And he plays at stocks and shares,
And he goes to the Regatta,
And he adores the girl next door,
'Cause he's dying to get at her,
But his mother knows the best about
The matrimonial stakes.

'Cause he's oh, so good,
And he's oh, so fine,
And he's oh, so healthy,
In his body and his mind.
He's a well respected man about town,
Doing the best things so conservatively.

------------------------------------------------------------

Avisitor wrote:Again focus upon words instead of intent??
Forever lost ...
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:36 am

Never as simple ...



The ink is black, the page is white
Together we learn to read and write
A child is black, a child is white
The whole world looks upon the sight, a beautiful sight

And now a child can understand
That this is the law of all the land, all the land
The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
Together they grow to see the light, to see the light

And now at last we plainly see
We'll have a dance of Liberty, Liberty!
The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
The whole world looks upon the sight, a beautiful sight

The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
Together they grow to see the light, to see the light

The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
The whole world looks upon the sight, a beautiful sight

The world is black, the world is white
It turns by day and then by night
A child is black, a child is white
Together they grow to see the light, to see the light

C'mon, get it, get it
Ohh-ohhhh, yeah, yeah
Keep it up now, around the world
Little boys and little girls
Yeah, yeah-eah, oh-ohhh
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:41 am

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Try a "jibe" is a sail on a boat??

Nein, mein Herr. The word is "jib".

She said she "liked the cut of my JIB." Music to my ears.

--Joe
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:43 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Avisitor wrote:Try a "jibe" is a sail on a boat??

Nein, mein Herr. The word is "jib".

She said she "liked the cut of my JIB." Music to my ears.

--Joe

Google jibe

jibe1
jīb/Submit
SAILING
verbUS
1.
change course by swinging a fore-and-aft sail across a following wind.
"they jibed, and the boat turned over"
noun
1.
an act or instance of jibing.

Still stuck on the word instead of intent??
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:47 am

Av,

Check it:

"Jib" is a sail.

But that may not jibe with your jive!

cheers,

--Joe
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:48 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Av,

Check it:

"Jib" is a sail.

But that may not jibe with your jive!

cheers,

--Joe

:peace:

Get off the words and look at intent
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:43 am

Av,

No, sir.

Words are not Gods, but goads. I always maintain... .

Therefore, they'd damn-well better be right, if intent is to be realized.

Can you dig?

This is important!

Lose the lackadaisicality,

--Joe

ps I'd have thought that Hong Kong speech was superlative. I still think it is, 99.4 percent of instances!

Avisitor wrote:Get off the words and look at intent
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:07 am

desert_woodworker wrote:No, sir.
Words are not Gods, but goads. I always maintain... .
Therefore, they'd damn-well better be right, if intent is to be realized.
Can you dig?
This is important!
Lose the lackadaisicality,

--Joe

ps I'd have thought that Hong Kong speech was superlative. I still think it is, 99.4 percent of instances!


The Cantonese language is dynamic

If one remains stuck upon words then one misses the meaning ...
One's cries for help can be disguised in anger and dismissal
The master's care shows up in yelling at the poor fellow

Wisdom and compassion follows the clear mind
Not the one thinking it is always right
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:15 am

Av,

Avisitor wrote:Not the one thinking it is always right

Phooey!, and ka-blooey!

Compassion would encourage you to know what the hell you are trying to talk about, and to express it in standard and unambiguous speech. If you speak at all, that is.

Unless it's just baloney. Or you're momentarily lackadaisical (which happens).

All's well. Just pointing out the obvious. ;-)

--Joe
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:32 am

And so it goes ...

:HAHA:
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby chankin1937 on Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:40 pm

chankin1937 wrote:Put another way “Nirvana is awareness of a mind free of thoughts. And that feels like a mind full of bliss.”


Fukasetsu wrote:Colin, it is not mind, nor things.
All you demonstrate is that mind cannot be used to get something (apart from) from mind.
Certainly not " Awareness"


Hello Fukasetsu,
I’ll state my take on this. See if you agree.
Consider this hypothetical case. In our primordial ancestor (that little biddie floating in a stagnant pool that relies on photosynthesis to live) there was a light receptor (eye) a neurone and a muscle. When the eye detected light it sent a message to the neurone which in turn activated the muscle, guiding the biddie towards the light. Before there is any light, its mind is empty. No stimuli. We could say it is “happy”. Then light arrives – the eye is stimulated - the neurone is activated - the action is initiated. Once the action is complete and our biddie has risen from the depths of the pool into the life-sustaining light the action ceases – the neurone is switched off - and awareness returns to its passive state of readiness - its “happy “state.. From those origins our complex nervous system evolved. We are aware. This is an attribute of the system. It is passive until called into action. We are aware of stimuli that pass messages to our neurones which in turn activate muscles etc. When we become aware of those stimuli we say they have “come to mind”; this “mind” is an ever-changing hypothetical arena. But it does exist. The concept works and is in common use. Here is the crux: the mechanism hasn’t changed! Once the job is done the awareness returns to its passive state – we are happy. Our problem is that we have many appetites – they overlap – we never allow our awareness to return to its passive state.
We suffer under the tyranny of thought. The Zen Masters tell us how to fix this – how to be primordially happy!

That is why we can say: “Nirvana is awareness of a mind free of thoughts. And that feels like a mind full of bliss.”


What are you doing to be aware right now?


I don’t have to do anything; it’s a natural attribute of my nervous system.
Colin
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:48 pm

chankin1937 wrote:
What are you doing to be aware right now?


I don’t have to do anything; it’s a natural attribute of my nervous system.
Colin


One's Buddha Nature is beyond one's nervous system
It is one's face before one's parents was born
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby [james] on Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:19 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Thank you, James. I'll answer as I can, if I can. Your questions are always good, and very kind.

[james] wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:The unmoving mind prevails in the awakened person, yes. And only Wisdom and Compassion arise in daily-life, not discrete thoughts, often for weeks or months or longer. That's just the way it is. If one hasn't experienced this, then ...one has not experienced it. That is all

To clarify, are you speaking from your personal experience as an awakened person or are you saying that this experience of the unmoving mind is characteristic of all awakened persons?

Is there more you can say about the arising and manifesting of wisdom and compassion (or Wisdom and Compassion if that is an important distinction) in the absence of discrete thoughts?


I don't think I'm awakened now. But there have been intervals. Some have been months long. Others just weeks. I've had discussions at times with others who were able to talk about it, and the unmoving mind seems characteristic, and is what provides the opening at the same time for Wisdom and Compassion to arise spontaneously and simultaneously in response to circumstances. You won't find much in books about this. I'm sorry to add anything to an internet forum about it, because I think the less said about it, the better. Some will think it's a "goal", and may be prevented from having it eventuate. It's not a goal. It's just a natural result of starving-out the moving mind, or allowing it to settle and not be able to lift itself and its fabrications again. Eventually the small mind rises again if one gets carried away and does not support and cultivate this with correct or sufficient ongoing practice. There must be considerable variation among practitioners.

And, yes, on the arising of Wisdom and Compassion, in the absence of discrete thoughts... it would be better to have an interactive conversation about this, as I distrust impressions or mis-impressions that sentences cast in the form of text may lend. And, yeah, I capitalize these, as they differ from ordinary "wisdom", and "compassion".

To start, I'd say that one's response in circumstances is spontaneous and fitting; Natural and ...unpremeditated. It was also possible to see in others many places where they were holding tension, and where energies were blocked-up (you kind of know how to be kind by not making them cringe even more in those areas when interacting, but you do this naturally, without any intermediary processes). Other human faculties besides the previously familiar ones were also operating, and one could use all of them freely, along with the familiar ones. It was clear that these had before just been covered-up, and that the body, in some ways, has to be open in order for these original inheritances to operate. Again, there may be great variation among different practitioners when it comes to the body, each of us with histories, upbringing, injuries, different from each other. But there are probably shared characteristics, too, when it comes to ways that stress shuts things down in the body, and how chronic incomplete relaxation can create blockages of otherwise free-flowing energy.

Pardon!, if none of this makes sense. It's not fabricated. It's my experience. And I'm really saying very little here. I've seen that some of it generalizes, in my experience within a couple of strong sanghas over a 30-plus year period. For people who want to practice intensively, I (always... ) recommend a venue of Teacher and sangha, and steady home-practice, and as much intensive practice ("retreats"; sesshin) as one can possibly undertake.

All best,

--Joe


Thank you for your generous reply, Desert Joe. Since first reading it my mind has been quite occupied with questions and thoughts of awakening, liberation, and the nature of the thought stream.

If I may ask, why or how do you sense that you are not now awakened and how do you distinguish (if you do) being awakened from awakening? What is the role of awareness of the thought stream in the perception of awakening?

Given the ever changing nature of being, how does a sense of awakening come to perception? The thought stream is ongoing and relentless, at least in my experience, so I am unable to see why an absence of discrete thought, or even discursive and discriminating thought might be equated with an unmoving mind. Nor can I see that it necessarily should be. To insist on a subduing of the thought stream is to advocate a denial or rejection of what is. Surely there is more to be done with awakening practice than simply extinguishing the dukkha of being. Tigerduck wrote a couple of months back "if we sit and your thoughts multiple to millions, who can say this is not perfect peace?" (Thanks duck)

Beyond the activities of practice, the constant, ever changing nature of being flows on unaffected. Though I'm actually not confident that awakening can be brought into awareness without some sort of awakening practice, I do feel that the fact of awakening is fundamental to the nature of being. Whether we are aware of it or not, awakening, realization, insight is ongoing. How is it then that, once established, recognition of an awakened state is swayed by the demands of the thought stream? Is it really so straightforward that subduing the "I" narrative will open us to the fullness of being. We are already immersed in this fullness. How is that not enough?

The "I" narrative is indeed a conundrum. There seems to be a love/hate relationship with the I/me/mine story amongst many who are engaged in awakening practice. I often see myself in this situation. If I have any concept of Buddhist liberation, it is as a fluid, balanced resolution of this conundrum. Peaceful and harmonious fulfillment in this momentary being, a platform of openness to ever awakening, never awakened. A centre of stillness in a vortex.
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby desert_woodworker on Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:19 am

James,

I wish you the best in your practice! I hope you have the assets of Teacher and Sangha. If not now, then someday, I hope.

In replying, I'll try to be the very briefest I can. Let that be my "Yoga"! Maybe I'll just cover one or two things, also, I don't know.

Yes, I distinguish between awakening, and being awakened: here's what I have to say: Awakening is the moment of awakening. Being awakened is the life in awakening which follows. I make this distinction, not because the experience is different as time passes, but because readers over our shoulders may suppose that awakening is just "a flash", a "moment of insight", a very "brief glimpse" of something. I think people may get such ideas of awakening being short-lived from popular writings on Zen Buddhism, where the writer was not personally involved, but was trying instead to interpret someone else's experience. But they cast it wrong, and give the wrong impression.

First, I think that among Zen Buddhist practitioners, awakening always happens abruptly. My situations were that way. Sudden, radical breaks with what was transpiring just the very moment before, the new moment changing into a completely unimaginable and unexpected, different state (well, the first time, anyway. But still a sudden change on subsequent occasions). The "changings" (awakenings) lasted months, or weeks.

I say I don't think I'm awakened NOW because certain characteristics of the awakened state are clearly missing. I also know that I have not put in the required amount of practice to have awakened recently, or to be awake now. My practice is really quite weak. I don't like to make lists in public about what I sense is missing, and covered-up, but maybe one or two things will occur to me to mention. If I don't feel it would be "speaking too plainly" -- against which there is a sensible injunction in Zen Buddhism -- I'll say a few things (mulling it over... ).

Nope. By now I've tired. Maybe next time!

OK, no. One thing is so obvious and so characteristic, that there is no use holding back. Let me say that AT awakening, and subsequently IN awakening, everything stops. It's clear that there is no mind. Everything is simple, completely ordinary, but yet as if seen, really seen, heard, felt, etc., rightly, and directly, for the first time. The scales have dropped from everything, or from our eyes, and there is no dust or mist or clouds over anything. There is no separation between things, and THINGS, moreover, are participating in something else, not living their (separate; individual) lives, but are clearly aspects and expressions of something else, which lives its life through these things. It's the same with us (I mean with oneself). We can say there is nothing, really nothing at all. And so, things are really, really simple. Nothing moves. Even moving things do not seem to be really moving. There is no movement of mind, and no sense of a mind existing. Else, the only mind is all that we see, hear, etc., and it has the form and spirit of all the things we see, with no separations, and no movement at all. There is complete freedom in this world that has opened. Our movements are spontaneous and free. Indeed, the body feels weightless and totally supple. Whatever is called for is performed instantly without hesitation, and without hindrance. Wisdom and Compassion arise spontaneously, unbidden, miraculously. Our behavior, as it comes in circumstances, is just what is necessary, and is not premeditated, but spontaneous and fast. This would be good if you are a martial-artist!, but it is good for everyone.

There are other things that are characteristic, but I will not write about them. I probably would not talk about them either. With a teacher, I would feel free to talk about just about everything. But, it might be a shame to do so. Some things are clearest when not talked about, but participated in, and clearly shared. Even in saying this, though, I'm leaking driblets from my crankcase onto this nice clean driveway!

Oh!, yes, if one feels so empowered and weightless as one does, it's possible to come to neglect (!) continuing sufficient samadhi practice throughout the day, I can say. This leads to an erosion -- no, a re-covering-up -- of the awakened state. And you're then one who is left again as I am now. "Immersed in the fullness" as you say, yes, but just not participating fully (and one senses this, you bet). Handicapped, by various shackles and blinders that have come back. Able to ignore them to an extent, but that alone in itself does not and cannot bring back the full panoply of the gifts of our original nature. But Practice can, and does. As long as you practice for no reason but to practice.

Mouth now closed, :lol2:

--Joe

[james] wrote:
Thank you for your generous reply, Desert Joe. Since first reading it my mind has been quite occupied with questions and thoughts of awakening, liberation, and the nature of the thought stream.

If I may ask, why or how do you sense that you are not now awakened and how do you distinguish (if you do) being awakened from awakening? What is the role of awareness of the thought stream in the perception of awakening?

Given the ever changing nature of being, how does a sense of awakening come to perception? The thought stream is ongoing and relentless, at least in my experience, so I am unable to see why an absence of discrete thought, or even discursive and discriminating thought might be equated with an unmoving mind. Nor can I see that it necessarily should be. To insist on a subduing of the thought stream is to advocate a denial or rejection of what is. Surely there is more to be done with awakening practice than simply extinguishing the dukkha of being. Tigerduck wrote a couple of months back "if we sit and your thoughts multiple to millions, who can say this is not perfect peace?" (Thanks duck)

Beyond the activities of practice, the constant, ever changing nature of being flows on unaffected. Though I'm actually not confident that awakening can be brought into awareness without some sort of awakening practice, I do feel that the fact of awakening is fundamental to the nature of being. Whether we are aware of it or not, awakening, realization, insight is ongoing. How is it then that, once established, recognition of an awakened state is swayed by the demands of the thought stream? Is it really so straightforward that subduing the "I" narrative will open us to the fullness of being. We are already immersed in this fullness. How is that not enough?

The "I" narrative is indeed a conundrum. There seems to be a love/hate relationship with the I/me/mine story amongst many who are engaged in awakening practice. I often see myself in this situation. If I have any concept of Buddhist liberation, it is as a fluid, balanced resolution of this conundrum. Peaceful and harmonious fulfillment in this momentary being, a platform of openness to ever awakening, never awakened. A centre of stillness in a vortex.
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Avisitor on Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:56 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Mouth now closed, :lol2:

--Joe



More grist for the mill ...

Mouth now open ... jaw dropped
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Re: Theoretical, Tathagata, Patriarchal Zen

Postby Michaeljc on Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:15 am

Joe - in relation to your last post

What did your teacher say on each occasion?

I am picking it was, "These are only glimpses, drop it all and move on"

:Namaste:

m
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