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Don't practice without a teacher?

Discussion of general East-Asian Mahayana Buddhism, Sutras & Shastras.

Re: Don't practice without a teacher

Postby Unequaled108 on Mon May 18, 2009 5:29 pm

termite wrote:That's a pretty silly question, isn't it? :) How would you, as the Sheriff of Dodge City, respond to it? You're asking me to imagine a state that isn't, and answer from that pretended point of view. :PP:


I'm asking you to consider a context that most of the members of this board of a part of in some way. You've said you're not a part of that context.

termite wrote:Another voyage into the weeds. I never said that your responses, from your tradition, were invalid. I may feel that they are invalid from a viewpoint outside that tradition, of course. :)


Logically, this would invalidate my tradition.

termite wrote:No. The exploration of that will only raise more defensiveness and hostility. The point is that the center of Buddhism is the Eightfold Path; there's more bushwhacking than path-walking going on here. :PP:


My friend, if you didn't want to raise defensiveness & hostility, perhaps accusing people of spreading "crud" is not the way to go. A rational discussion, however, would give you the opportunity to explain your views on the Dharma, student-teacher relationships, and why you feel the views of the Zen patriarchs being discussed here are bush-walking rather than pathwalking.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher

Postby termite on Mon May 18, 2009 5:48 pm

Unequaled108 wrote:
termite wrote:That's a pretty silly question, isn't it? :) How would you, as the Sheriff of Dodge City, respond to it? You're asking me to imagine a state that isn't, and answer from that pretended point of view. :PP:


I'm asking you to consider a context that most of the members of this board of a part of in some way. You've said you're not a part of that context.


No, you're asking me to answer from that context, which is a trying-on-hats exercise. I'm not wearing a hat today.

termite wrote:Another voyage into the weeds. I never said that your responses, from your tradition, were invalid. I may feel that they are invalid from a viewpoint outside that tradition, of course. :)


Logically, this would invalidate my tradition.


That would be your problem to deal with, not mine. Surely we can disagree (if indeed we do) without "invalidating" your point of view.

termite wrote:No. The exploration of that will only raise more defensiveness and hostility. The point is that the center of Buddhism is the Eightfold Path; there's more bushwhacking than path-walking going on here. :PP:


My friend, if you didn't want to raise defensiveness & hostility, perhaps accusing people of spreading "crud" is not the way to go. A rational discussion, however, would give you the opportunity to explain your views on the Dharma, student-teacher relationships, and why you feel the views of the Zen patriarchs being discussed here are bush-walking rather than pathwalking.


I didn't accuse anybody of any such thing. I only characterized the thread itself, and some of the behavior seen displayed here. Your "you feel..." business is a straw man; the "bushwhacking" (not "bush-walking") is the behavior here, not the "views of the Zen patriarchs."

And if you re-read the thread, you'll find that I never argued against the Zen student-teacher relationship. I don't believe that anybody has done that here, and I suggest that some reactions among the pro-teacher posters arise from defensiveness, not from what's actually been said here. :)
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Drolma on Mon May 18, 2009 6:14 pm

Hi termite,

My curiosity has been piqued. What's the crud?

Thanks :)
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Hanrei on Mon May 18, 2009 6:29 pm

"Put the spades down and walk away from the hole". (Lord Buddha, The Crud Sutta)

Regards,

H.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Drolma on Mon May 18, 2009 6:34 pm

"You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away, know when to run."
-Kenny Rogers

:tee:
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby TTT on Mon May 18, 2009 6:44 pm

Im just curus can one be enlighten by Zen and othere buddhist thingys?

I done know so much about Zen.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher

Postby shel on Mon May 18, 2009 6:53 pm

termite wrote:"bushwhacking"



"In conflict, straightforward actions generally lead to engagement, surprising actions generally lead to victory."

-- Sun Tzu, from the Art of War.


:PP:
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby termite on Mon May 18, 2009 6:55 pm

Drolma wrote:Hi termite,

My curiosity has been piqued. What's the crud?

Thanks :)
Drolma


I was just referring to the general tone, the behavior here. It may have been a poor word choice. I've seen what looks like arrogance and defensiveness, and a lot of "talking past each other" rather than actually paying attention.

I realize that, as a student of the "No School" (also known as "Not Zen" ;) ), I'm a guest on this forum. I specifically asked, in the Feedback section, whether I had misunderstood the guidelines of this "General Dharma Discussion" section, because something I posted questioning things posted here resulted in a hostile private attack from another member. There is currently a discussion about how to handle confrontational discussions, and I think it arises mainly from this discussion, and from the "Master Baiting" thread.

That stuff, outside the content of the discussion, is what I was referring to as "crud." Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher

Postby termite on Mon May 18, 2009 6:56 pm

piper wrote:
termite wrote:"bushwhacking"



"In conflict, straightforward actions generally lead to engagement, surprising actions generally lead to victory."

-- Sun Tzu, from the Art of War.


:PP:


Didn't help Sun Tzu much in the long run. He's just as dead as any of his enemies. :lol2:
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher

Postby shel on Mon May 18, 2009 6:57 pm

termite wrote:
piper wrote:
termite wrote:"bushwhacking"



"In conflict, straightforward actions generally lead to engagement, surprising actions generally lead to victory."

-- Sun Tzu, from the Art of War.


:PP:


Didn't help Sun Tzu much in the long run. He's just as dead as any of his enemies. :lol2:


Good point.
If you've come here to help me you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is tied up with mine then let's work together. ~ Lilla Watson

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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Drolma on Mon May 18, 2009 6:59 pm

Hi termite,

Cool, thanks :) Yes, there's a lot of talking past eachother in this conversation. Sometimes that's easy to remedy, if people acknowledge another's point before responding directly to it with a different opinion. I hadn't noticed the finer point that this is in the General Buddhism section!

Best,
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Hanrei on Mon May 18, 2009 7:00 pm

Yeah, the race to the graveyard or cremitorium may be the only one this rat doesn't want to win.

TTT,

Seems everyone has their Own Personal Zen going on but, yes, one can be enlightened by Zen and other Buddhist thingys, by anything and everything, even our most cherished and tightly held assumptions can be realised and realise us.

Hallelujah!!! (are you saved yet?) :p: :rbow: :p:

Regards,

Harry.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Unequaled108 on Mon May 18, 2009 7:02 pm

termite wrote:I realize that, as a student of the "No School" (also known as "Not Zen" ;) ), I'm a guest on this forum. I specifically asked, in the Feedback section, whether I had misunderstood the guidelines of this "General Dharma Discussion" section, because something I posted questioning things posted here resulted in a hostile private attack from another member. There is currently a discussion about how to handle confrontational discussions, and I think it arises mainly from this discussion, and from the "Master Baiting" thread.

That stuff, outside the content of the discussion, is what I was referring to as "crud." Sorry if I wasn't clear.


This explanation clears up a lot, rather than raise hostility & defensiveness.
JB MuSsang Jaeger, Dharma Teacher, Baltimore Zen Center (Blue Mountain Order/WZF), http://www.baltimorezen.org
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby TTT on Mon May 18, 2009 7:04 pm

I got no anser so i anser from my prespektiv. I know a littel about vajrayana.

There is a generation stage and an othere.
And you, the practichner Out of your sens of emptiness generate yourself as the yidam. For exempel chenrenzig, buddha of conpassio thet is you "assosiat" your one emptiness whid the Yidams (emptinsse) so its usualy for the general practitoner, like myself, a gradual process thet end up in somthing u call enlightenment. ok? And i dont expect an easy anser. so, no.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby termite on Mon May 18, 2009 7:09 pm

Unequaled108 wrote:
termite wrote:I realize that, as a student of the "No School" (also known as "Not Zen" ;) ), I'm a guest on this forum. I specifically asked, in the Feedback section, whether I had misunderstood the guidelines of this "General Dharma Discussion" section, because something I posted questioning things posted here resulted in a hostile private attack from another member. There is currently a discussion about how to handle confrontational discussions, and I think it arises mainly from this discussion, and from the "Master Baiting" thread.

That stuff, outside the content of the discussion, is what I was referring to as "crud." Sorry if I wasn't clear.


This explanation clears up a lot, rather than raise hostility & defensiveness.


You asked me "what views are crud"? That's not the same question that Drolma asked.

You made an assumption of what I was talking about; Drolma simply asked. :)
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Carol on Mon May 18, 2009 7:16 pm

Hanrei wrote:"Put the spades down and walk away from the hole". (Lord Buddha, The Crud Sutta)

Regards,

H.


:)X

Oh, Harry! I'm splitting my sides. Let's do compile all the lost verses of The Crud Sutta for the library here -- Would you be able to take charge of this project?

:lool:
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Hanrei on Mon May 18, 2009 7:21 pm

...or one can be awakened by "the whiff of shit", a stone lantern, the sound of a pebble on bamboo, a river, a mountain, a blow, a shout or some other such valid teacher of the Maha Crud Sutra.

When 'the whiff of crud' is realised as a sutra, you can let your subscription to Tricycle Magazine expire.

Regards,

Harry.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Unequaled108 on Mon May 18, 2009 7:29 pm

termite wrote:You asked me "what views are crud"? That's not the same question that Drolma asked.

You made an assumption of what I was talking about; Drolma simply asked. :)


Of course. I've been discussing the student-teacher relationship in Zen practice.

The crud has nothing to do with that.
Last edited by Unequaled108 on Mon May 18, 2009 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Unequaled108 on Mon May 18, 2009 7:30 pm

Hanrei wrote:When 'the whiff of crud' is realised as a sutra, you can let your subscription to Tricycle Magazine expire.


Crud does not depart from magazine, magazine does not depart from crud.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Unequaled108 on Mon May 18, 2009 7:32 pm

keniz138 wrote:Bodhidharma has no beard!


It's in his pants.
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