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Don't practice without a teacher?

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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Drolma on Mon May 18, 2009 7:35 pm

TTT wrote:Im just curus can one be enlighten by Zen and othere buddhist thingys?

I done know so much about Zen.


Hi TTT,

Yes, I think someone can awaken using Zen techniques and following that path. Unlike Vajrayana, which you mentioned, Zen doesn't employ the use of yidams. As I understand it the mind-training is approached a little differently. The main meditation technique I've heard of in Zen Buddhism is Zazen.

But all three yanas still stick to the basic Buddhist tenants like karma, rebirth, anatta, anicca, 4NT, 8FP, and so on.

I am so far from a Zen expert! But I hope this helps :)

Best,
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby termite on Mon May 18, 2009 7:44 pm

Unequaled108 wrote:
termite wrote:You asked me "what views are crud"? That's not the same question that Drolma asked.

You made an assumption of what I was talking about; Drolma simply asked. :)


Of course. I've been discussing the student-teacher relationship in Zen practice.

The crud has nothing to do with that.


Okay. Does crud ever arise in the student-teacher relationship? :)
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby TTT on Mon May 18, 2009 7:46 pm

mind-training is approached a little differently


Thank you for your anser. lo-jon is great i think. Do you Practice it i know nothing about it, only whant i have read.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Carol on Mon May 18, 2009 7:48 pm

termite wrote:Okay. Does crud ever arise in the student-teacher relationship? :)



:Pick Me!:

Yes. It does. Whole books have been written about some of the crud that arises sometimes in the teacher-student relationship. I think it is a very healthy thing to observe carefully and require a teacher to earn your trust. I also think every sentient being brings a certain amount of crud with him/her into this life and we all need to be as forgiving and truthful about it as we can -- without exceptions.

:Namaste:
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Carol on Mon May 18, 2009 7:52 pm

TTT wrote:
mind-training is approached a little differently


Thank you for your anser. lo-jon is great i think. Do you Practice it i know nothing about it, only whant i have read.


Hi TTT -- These are good questions and topics for discussion in the Tibetan Buddhism sub-forum here.

The central thrust of this forum is Zen Buddhism, but you're welcome here to learn more about Zen and to discuss specific questions about other Buddhist traditions in the sub-forums we've provided for that purpose.

If you need help finding your way around the forum, just ask.

:Namaste:
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby termite on Mon May 18, 2009 8:09 pm

Carol wrote:
termite wrote:Okay. Does crud ever arise in the student-teacher relationship? :)



:Pick Me!:

Yes. It does. Whole books have been written about some of the crud that arises sometimes in the teacher-student relationship. I think it is a very healthy thing to observe carefully and require a teacher to earn your trust. I also think every sentient being brings a certain amount of crud with him/her into this life and we all need to be as forgiving and truthful about it as we can -- without exceptions.

:Namaste:


Yes, I think that's an honest appraisal of the situation. The name of the boat we're all in is Samsara.

(Sometimes I like to rock it a little bit, to see if the oarsmen are awake. ;) )
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Unequaled108 on Mon May 18, 2009 8:17 pm

termite wrote:Okay. Does crud ever arise in the student-teacher relationship? :)


That is the goal of the student-teacher relationship.
JB MuSsang Jaeger, Dharma Teacher, Baltimore Zen Center (Blue Mountain Order/WZF), http://www.baltimorezen.org
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby termite on Mon May 18, 2009 8:21 pm

Unequaled108 wrote:
termite wrote:Okay. Does crud ever arise in the student-teacher relationship? :)


That is the goal of the student-teacher relationship.


Seems to be working. :lol2:
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Drolma on Mon May 18, 2009 8:21 pm

Unequaled108 wrote:
termite wrote:Okay. Does crud ever arise in the student-teacher relationship? :)


That is the goal of the student-teacher relationship.


Thank goodness. Seriously :Namaste:
I appreciate that.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby shel on Mon May 18, 2009 8:54 pm

Unequaled108 wrote:
termite wrote:Okay. Does crud ever arise in the student-teacher relationship? :)


That is the goal of the student-teacher relationship.


Hear me seekers of the crud... before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw crud as crud. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that crud is not crud. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see crud once again as crud!
If you've come here to help me you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is tied up with mine then let's work together. ~ Lilla Watson

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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Drolma on Mon May 18, 2009 8:55 pm

Dear piper,

What do I do if the crud keeps finding me?

:EEK:
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby shel on Mon May 18, 2009 8:58 pm

Drolma wrote:Dear piper,

What do I do if the crud keeps finding me?

:EEK:


It is from the crud that the lotus blossom springs! :daisy:
If you've come here to help me you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is tied up with mine then let's work together. ~ Lilla Watson

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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Drolma on Mon May 18, 2009 9:06 pm

piper wrote:
Drolma wrote:Dear piper,

What do I do if the crud keeps finding me?

:EEK:


It is from the crud that the lotus blossom springs! :daisy:


Woohoo! I'm ready for it then! Image

teehee
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby TTT on Wed May 20, 2009 2:48 am

From: Hanrei

Yeah, the race to the graveyard or cremitorium may be the only one this rat doesn't want to win.




TTT,

Seems everyone has their Own Personal Zen going on but, yes, one can be enlightened by Zen and other Buddhist thingys, by anything and everything, even our most cherished and tightly held assumptions can be realised and realise us.



My best regard and thanks for the remark.
Magnus.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby christopher::: on Wed May 20, 2009 8:55 am

piper wrote:
Drolma wrote:Dear piper,

What do I do if the crud keeps finding me?

:EEK:


It is from the crud that the lotus blossom springs! :daisy:


There is no escaping crud in human relationships,
imo, the question is do we throw it on our roots to help us grow,
or do we swallow it?

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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby shel on Wed May 20, 2009 8:24 pm

350 posts, over 2,000 views and still there is not much talk in this thread about the poisonous pitfalls of practice and exactly why it is essential to have a true guide in order to safely traverse the distance to this hither shore.

I suppose that I will have to start a separate thread dedicated to that specific topic.
If you've come here to help me you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is tied up with mine then let's work together. ~ Lilla Watson

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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby So-on Mann on Wed May 20, 2009 9:00 pm

piper wrote:350 posts, over 2,000 views and still there is not much talk in this thread about the poisonous pitfalls of practice and how it is essential to have a true guide in order to safely traverse the distance to this hither shore.

I suppose that I will have to start a separate thread dedicated to that specific topic.


From the Lotus Sutra:

A good friend is the great cause and condition by which one is guided and led, and which enables one to see the Buddha and to conceive the desire for supreme perfect enlightenment.
Facing a precious mirror, form and reflection behold each other. You are not it, but in truth it is you.
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby shel on Wed May 20, 2009 9:06 pm

So-on Mann wrote:
piper wrote:350 posts, over 2,000 views and still there is not much talk in this thread about the poisonous pitfalls of practice and how it is essential to have a true guide in order to safely traverse the distance to this hither shore.

I suppose that I will have to start a separate thread dedicated to that specific topic.


From the Lotus Sutra:

A good friend is the great cause and condition by which one is guided and led, and which enables one to see the Buddha and to conceive the desire for supreme perfect enlightenment.

Yes, spiritual practice would be superfluous in the absence of other beings. Got it, thanks.

Incidentally, I reworded my last post for better accuracy since your post was submitted.
If you've come here to help me you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is tied up with mine then let's work together. ~ Lilla Watson

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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby Carol on Wed May 20, 2009 9:17 pm

termite wrote:Okay. Does crud ever arise in the student-teacher relationship? :)


Here are some things Linji (Rinzai) said about the teacher-student relationship. From The Zen Teachings of Rinzai, translated by Irmgard Schloegl.

Followers of the Way, as the Zen school sees it, life and death are under a certain order. In interviews the student should consider the smallest details. When host and guest appear, there is an exchange of discourse.

Sometimes form is shown as corresponds to things. Sometimes the whole boddy (essence) is brought into function. Sometimes the full power of solemn authority is exercised to evoke awe. Sometimes half the body (essence) is revealed. Sometimes the lion is mounted, sometimes the elephant (respectively Manjusri's and Samantabhadra's mounts, wisdom and compassion.)

***

In the case of a true student, he gives a Katsu; then he puts out a tray with sticky lacquer. The teacher does not discern this device, falls into the trap, and at once begins to elucidate fanciful theories. The student gives a Katsu. If the other still cannot let go, it becomes a disease that has penetrated to the very marrow (incurable). This is called "guest sees host."

Or it may be that the teacher does not posit anything at all, but follows the student's lead, and then snatches the question away from him. Though robbed, the student cannot drop it and clings to it till death. This is called "host sees guest."

Or else the student comes to the teacher with some devide of purity. The teacher discerns it as but a device, grabs it and throws it into a pit. The student exclaims: "What a great teacher." The teacher responds: "Bah! You don't know bad from good." The student then bows. This is called "host sees host."

Again, a student wearing cangue and chains presents himself before the teacher. The teacher then puts another set of cangue and chains on him. The student is overjoyed. Neither one nor the other are capable of discernment. This is called "guest sees guest."

***

Venerable ones, the examples I hae just cited serve only to discern Mara, to select differences and to make you know the straight from the crooked.
Practitioners who cultivate the personal realization of buddha knowledge dwell in the bliss of whatever is present and do not abandon their practice.
~Lankavatara Sutra
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Re: Don't practice without a teacher?

Postby christopher::: on Thu May 21, 2009 2:11 am

So-on Mann wrote:
piper wrote:350 posts, over 2,000 views and still there is not much talk in this thread about the poisonous pitfalls of practice and how it is essential to have a true guide in order to safely traverse the distance to this hither shore.

I suppose that I will have to start a separate thread dedicated to that specific topic.


From the Lotus Sutra:

A good friend is the great cause and condition by which one is guided and led, and which enables one to see the Buddha and to conceive the desire for supreme perfect enlightenment.


Buddha strongly emphasized sangha. I definitely believe that good friends are teachers in our lives. Here in Japan they speak often of sempais and cohais in situations where a group is trying to learn things together. The teacher plays a role but sempais (senior students) are absolutely crucial for helping with everyone's learning. Even that kind of heirarchy doesnt always fit how learning happens. I try to look at everyone in my life as a potential teacher.

One of the hopes many of us had for ZFI was that we'd be able to benefit from one another's wisdom and experiences in this way.

:ghug:
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