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The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:22 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:The nature of ignorance is the nature of Buddha, ...

In The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana (where "Mahayana" there actually means The Absolute, or Suchness), the writer Asvaghosha, teaches the more correct observation, versus the mush that is sometimes found on "the internet" (CAUTION!). Here is the straight poop, as we say (through the intermediary of a translator to English, the late Prof. Y. S. Hakeda of Columbia University):

    "The Tathagatha-garbha is the mind of the Sentient Being".
Now, a sentient being may be in delusion (samsara) as of yet (not awake... ), but can awaken if the being is a Human being. So, the Tathagatha is the mind of the awakened sentient being, the awakened Human.

The mind of the sentient being (Human) is endowed with all the talents and functions of The Absolute, and of Suchness, which are just covered-up and remain dormant in a human who is not awake. This is why awakening is emphasized, so that, by uncovering what is true (-nature), beings may live without the suffering that ignorance (blindness and separation from original nature) imposes.

Ch'an (Zen) Buddhism is special in its compassionate way because it provides teachers and methods which can help to result in rather quick awakening to original nature, in the form of "sudden-awakening", and then gradual cultivation and deepening of realization can take place as practice changes, following initial awakening.

It just does a practitioner (and his/her unfortunate associates! ;) ) no good at all to suppose discursively that, "the nature of ignorance is the nature of Buddha". And, it just isn't so. It's a slacker's philosophy, a slacker's mantra; And, it's poison.

What I've written, is, I'd say, an account that is consistent (or better... ) with Ch'an and Zen Buddhist teachings. If I have erred, please let Chan-, or Zen-, or Son-, or Thien-Buddhist Teachers here kindly give a correction, for All (Thank you!).

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:26 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:No.

This is not personal. Please review the truth of this: it is not personal.

I distinguish between "compassion" as popularly supposed-about ("understood"), and true Compassion (karuna). And I distinguish between them because they are different.

Any Ch'an-person (Zen-person; etc.) will tell you the same thing: they are different, and that's what makes them a "they" (and not just an "it"). Indeed, this difference is not personal to any person. I'm not special in this way. Nor are you special. Ordinary compassion and true Compassion are just different. To experience the difference, one must be awake.

--Joe


Dont see why you're throwing in that it's not personal, "personal" doesnt apply to our communication.
I never said I didnt discern between the two, I was merely saying you can't from the internet tell whether I or anyone else have or haven't experienced the difference. You might think you can, but you cant be sure. Hence a lot of the points are moot and just another fish you throw to come at the point you want to make too often, that one has to go through a certain practise or school before one can experience. You seem very keen that ppl see or experience things the way you do, reminds me of Dogen a bit.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:39 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:The nature of ignorance is the nature of Buddha, ...

In The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana (where "Mahayana" there actually means The Absolute, or Suchness), the writer Asvaghosha, teaches the more correct observation, versus the mush that is sometimes found on "the internet" (CAUTION!). Here is the straight poop, as we say (through the intermediary of a translator to English, the late Prof. Y. S. Hakeda of Columbia University):

    "The Tathagatha-garbha is the mind of the Sentient Being".
Now, a sentient being may be in delusion (samsara) as of yet (not awake... ), but can awaken if the being is a Human being. So, the Tathagatha is the mind of the awakened sentient being, the awakened Human.

The mind of the sentient being (Human) is endowed with all the talents and functions of The Absolute, and of Suchness, which are just covered-up and remain dormant in a human who is not awake. This is why awakening is emphasized, so that, by uncovering what is true (-nature), beings may live without the suffering that ignorance (blindness and separation from original nature) imposes.

Ch'an (Zen) Buddhism is special in its compassionate way because it provides teachers and methods which can help to result in rather quick awakening to original nature, in the form of "sudden-awakening", and then gradual cultivation and deepening of realization can take place as practice changes, following initial awakening.

It just does a practitioner (and his/her unfortunate associates! ;) ) no good at all to suppose discursively that, "the nature of ignorance is the nature of Buddha". And, it just isn't so. It's a slacker's philosophy, a slacker's mantra; And, it's poison.

What I've written, is, I'd say, an account that is consistent (or better... ) with Ch'an and Zen Buddhist teachings. If I have erred, please let Chan-, or Zen-, or Son-, or Thien-Buddhist Teachers here kindly give a correction, for All (Thank you!).

:Namaste:,

--Joe


That's exactly what I said, but you insist I dont understand or its all theory or whatever superfluous ingredient you want to add to the soup. Sudden awakening is a term (and outcome) of mahayana buddhism, nothing special about it. No religion or school is special. It is 'inborn' in humans that they inquire about the nature of the universe or about birth and death etc.

in some it is stronger then others depending on their karma, ppl life and ppl practise. Preaching about Ch'an and awakening doesnt help anyone. The only vehicle on this forum ever who claimed to have experienced "awakening" is you Sir, which I have no problems with. What is an issue for the sake of all practisioners is that you often make claims that those who didnt (experience) cannot know about what they're speaking of. Which is presenting ppl with a pen and paper yet saying all you write down is out of your experience, at least if what according to you, can only be experienced "after awakening" Which I find unhealthy, sorry.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:58 pm

hi, Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:The only vehicle on this forum ever who claimed to have experienced "awakening" is you Sir, which I have no problems with.

You use "vehicle" in a funny way. Idiosyncratic. I have no problem with it, but others might. I am a person, and practitioner, Marcel, not a vehicle. My Toyota Prius is a vehicle. So is my Raleigh bicycle.

When asked by Jundo Roshi if I spoke from experience, or merely from reading and interpretation of reading, I answered, "experience". Why should I lie?

fuki wrote:What is an issue for the sake of all practisioners is that you often make claims that those who didnt (experience) cannot know about what they're speaking of.

You/we should let those "practisioners" (hybrid of practitioner and prisoner? :tongueincheek: ) speak for themselves, ...if it's on-topic. Are you sure it's not just an "issue" for you? If it's indeed an "issue" for anyone? What I do, from time to time where necessary, is state the obvious (obvious to a practitioner who has awakened once or more times), which is also the party-line of the Chan- school, and many others: to wit, If you have not awakened, you may be expert in delusion, but not in its opposite. For this reason, practice of the right kind exists (if you practice in Ch'an or Zen circles), and is necessary, if one is to awaken and have an awakening confirmed as authentic and as recognized in Ch'an and Zen circles. Or else, to be encouraged to "Work HARDER!". Simple. Lovely. And most compassionate. Miraculously so... . You'll "see", if you begin this practice (and continue), in those circles.

fuki wrote:Which is presenting ppl with a pen and paper yet saying all you write down is out of your experience, at least if what according to you, can only be experienced "after awakening" Which I find unhealthy, sorry.

See above. What's unhealthy is to spread unfounded rumors about practice and practices that one has no experience with. That goes for everyone; you're not special in that regard, Marcel, and I don't mean to single you out, only. It's actually a too-common affliction! Ask Meido Roshi.

Those who have practiced and awakened one or more times to true-nature know that Buddhas and patriarchs have not lied to us. Hail!

:Namaste:,

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:08 pm

Joe, you skirt around my point and once more fall back in habitual responding. Nevermind we're off topic anyway.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:23 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:Joe, you skirt around my point and once more fall back in habitual responding.

Your "interpretation-of-a-perception", as you say.

I'm not skirting, but making a point clear, in case it was not, earlier. Granted, this is not an academic site, but, hey.

fuki wrote:Nevermind we're off topic anyway.

Right.

Have "Sympathetic Joy"!, then, that many workers in USA are happy today because it's a Holiday. No US Mail; no Banks are open; the Stock Market is closed. Many flags are flying in honor of Labor. Mine is.

[But, some business continues unabated: I made a purchase today on eBay of an old 7-inch tape-recorder so I can transcribe and digitize my old tapes recorded from the TV speaker of Apollo moon missions from 1968-1972. And, other tapes of adolescence, and early adulthood. Voices of dead relatives "appear" on those tapes, too, so this is bound to be an emotional experience as well as exciting and nostalgic, beginning in a week or so when the vintage machine arrives. It's said to be in good working-order, but I'll tweak whatever may be necessary to bring it to optimum].

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:50 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Have "Sympathetic Joy"!, then, that many workers in USA are happy today because it's a Holiday. No US Mail; no Banks are open; the Stock Market is closed. Many flags are flying in honor of Labor. Mine is.

[But, some business continues unabated: I made a purchase today on eBay of an old 7-inch tape-recorder so I can transcribe and digitize my old tapes recorded from the TV speaker of Apollo moon missions from 1968-1972. And, other tapes of adolescence, and early adulthood. Voices of dead relatives "appear" on those tapes, too, so this is bound to be an emotional experience as well as exciting and nostalgic, beginning in a week or so when the vintage machine arrives. It's said to be in good working-order, but I'll tweak whatever may be necessary to bring it to optimum].

--Joe


Wow that special Joe, quite a way to relive those days. Good luck with the project.

Happy Labor Day to all US folks, here it's on May 1st.
I was focussed on a Dutch journalist talking about his experience in Myanmar I had no idea it was labor day, the only US day I always remember is the 4th of July for obvious reasons.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Spike on Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:08 pm

fukasetsu wrote: The only vehicle on this forum ever who claimed to have experienced "awakening" is you Sir . . .


Laozi: "He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLgsSXfFfHY

fukasetsu wrote: . . . which I have no problems with.


Except for this minor thingy:

fukasetsu wrote:What is an issue for the sake of all practisioners is that you often make claims that those who didnt (experience) cannot know about what they're speaking of. Which is presenting ppl with a pen and paper yet saying all you write down is out of your experience, at least if what according to you, can only be experienced "after awakening" Which I find unhealthy, sorry.


If DeeDub's teacher affirmed DeeDub's enlightenment experience, then it is legitimate, subject to the constraints of human error. It is indeed unprecedented, as far as I know, to appear to brag about such on this forum (or for that matter to do so in general). That seems unenlightened speech, and regressive.

P.S. Nothing wrong with spelling practisioner phonetically. If there were, bokki would be out of a job.
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Nor wind to blow. --R.H.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:28 pm

Spike wrote:Laozi: "He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know."

Why say that? You must REALLY not know! :lol2: Good for you... .

Sympathetic Joy wells up... .

If anyone "brags" about awakening, that's probably not good for self and others. If anyone denies speaking from experience, rather than from mere reading and interpretation of reading, that's not good either.

The middle-way is "not to hide one's light under a bushel". Or, as Buddhists say, "Not to Spare the Dharma resources", which is one of our Precepts; as well as, "Not to Speak Falsely"... .

I think to brag about not being awake is pretty pissy, BTW.

Good that no one here is bragging, then.

Certainly, all points of view at ZFI are welcome; well, very evidently. ;)

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:44 pm

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote: I had no idea it was labor day, the only US day I always remember is the 4th of July for obvious reasons.

An easy way to remember it is that it is one of the FOUR days in the year when a well-oriented and designed Sundial requires no correction to the indicated-time.

That is, Labor Day (occurring early in Sept.), is one of four days in the year when "The Equation of Time" is identically zero.

The four days are (easy for Americans to remember):

    Tax-Day (April 15)
    Flag Day (June 14)
    Labor Day (first Monday in Sept.)
    Christmas (Dec. 25)

--Joe

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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:59 pm

Spike wrote:If DeeDub's teacher affirmed DeeDub's enlightenment experience, then it is legitimate, subject to the constraints of human error. It is indeed unprecedented, as far as I know, to appear to brag about such on this forum (or for that matter to do so in general). That seems unenlightened speech, and regressive.


Hi Spike,

my point was not about what one does or does not do after awakening, my point was that one who did experience awakening(s) cannot say to someone else that he/she has never experienced true compassion or can know anything about it. Nor can one be sure whether the person adressed had an awakening experience(s) or not, but more importantly I dont agree with the statement that one cannot know about true compassion, nor do I think it is wise to do so whether the point was valid or not.

I dont care if Joe chops wood, carries water or speaks on the interweb about his experiences, in fact I appreciate it. What I dont appreciate is that he tells anyone "you cannot know" unless, until etcetera.

Some people talk with trees others call them crazy, any tradition or belief system who calls anything legit or not is also of no concern to me whether it is Shakya himself. I'm not depended on it for I have no such divisions in my world. I see ppl for what they are and how we can live in each others awareness, instead of in ideas or legit pieces of paper about each other. I dropped out of school when I was 10, "legit" is just a word or a signature.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:02 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Marcel,

That is, Labor Day (occurring early in Sept.), is one of four days in the year when "The Equation of Time" is identically zero.

The four days are (easy for Americans to remember):

    Tax-Day (April 15)
    Flag Day (June 14)
    Labor Day (first Monday in Sept.)
    Christmas (Dec. 25)

--Joe

Eqn_of_Time.jpg


That's funny Joe, thanks.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Spike on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:06 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Why say that? You must REALLY not know! :lol2: Good for you...


Well, if anyone felt entitled to say that, it would certainly be one like you.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:07 pm

Fuki, et al.,

fukasetsu wrote:What I dont appreciate is that he tells anyone "you cannot know" unless, until etcetera.

Such is life. Yes, there are certain realities. "Appreciate" it or not, face up to it!

One can ask teachers here. Just say, "Joe sent me". They may say Joe is half-baked. Or they may say that Joe has a fine golden Arizona tan. Let the chips fall where they may. But don't remain in doubt, or in a "not-appreciating" limbo. Let there be no more suspense. Go for it. The ball is in your court.

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:08 pm

Spike wrote:Well, if anyone felt entitled to say that, it would certainly be one like you.

Agreed. And it's exactly me.

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:13 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
One can ask teachers here. Just say, "Joe sent me". They may say Joe is half-baked. Or they may say that Joe has a fine golden Arizona tan. Let the chips fall where they may. But don't remain in doubt, or in a "not-appreciating" limbo. Let there be no more suspense. Go for it.

--Joe


There is no suspense or anything to face up to, time is well spend, no worries.You made me laugh so hard Joe, thanks, I love you. Let me make that appreciate you. Love is not a Buddhist word :lol2:
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:18 pm

Fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:
One can ask teachers here. Just say, "Joe sent me". They may say Joe is half-baked. Or they may say that Joe has a fine golden Arizona tan. Let the chips fall where they may. But don't remain in doubt, or in a "not-appreciating" limbo. Let there be no more suspense. Go for it.

There is no suspense or anything to face up to, time is well spend, no worries.You made me laugh so hard Joe, thanks, I love you. Let me make that appreciate you. Love is not a Buddhist word :lol2:

Well, you know what they say: if one can't help a Being, at least leave them "happy".

As I've written, I talk to you as I would to my beloved only-brother.

Spend time (say, a week-long Ch'an retreat) with Guo Gu, and you'll question why that son-of-a-gun (!) "Joe" didn't send you even more good-will than he has, when he so obviously could have! Ah, but the ZFI TOU are a hard task-master... . And kyosaku sticks don't work over the 'net, shucks.

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:55 pm

don't swing that stick at me :heya:

not the first time we've examined who can confirm such and such.... I'll have none of it.

And............ I wouldn't hesitate to sit with Guo Gu, being to being.
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:53 am

hiya, Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:And............ I wouldn't hesitate to sit with Guo Gu, being to being.

I myself have not hesitated to do so. Although, our mutual teacher, Ch'an Master Sheng Yen, was there in those days to keep him (somewhat) in check. :lol2:

:rbow:, Guo Gu,

;)

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:01 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:don't swing that stick at me :heya:

I think you could stop cooking with gas, and start "cooking" with wood. If you're of a mind to.

Have you been trained, and served, as Tanto? You would be Roshi's attendant, would open and close the zendo, offer Words from the Tanto's Seat, and get to "walk the kyosaku", and apply it, when asked-for. This was a position I took to OK in Pat Hawk Roshi's sangha, here (numerous sesshin). And, with my teacher Sheng Yen, a few times back in the day, soon before his passing.

I remember James Ford (now Roshi Ford) being a great Tanto. Batting-average of 1000. Much loved. And, Nils Mandoe! ;)

--Joe

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