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The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:18 am

Linda Anderson wrote:not sure why, but why a split?


sorry just because we had a few on request by me and joe from our new mods, since I thought were going off topic a bit for Sir Joe, was just thinking out loud force of habit
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:20 am

fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:As a kid I felt choked by being objectified by society, family, friends, school, lovers etc everyone was always having dreams and expectations for the future and thought I was odd for being different, much ado about nothing, live, breath and rest, everything happens by itself.

Nonsense.

You're living the life you aspired to or dreamed of.

Everybody thinks they're so singular and special, and so "put-upon". That's the worst disease of the Human condition. And the one that the Buddha positions himself to provide the cure.

Strong practice,

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:28 am

desert_woodworker wrote:fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:As a kid I felt choked by being objectified by society, family, friends, school, lovers etc everyone was always having dreams and expectations for the future and thought I was odd for being different, much ado about nothing, live, breath and rest, everything happens by itself.

Nonsense.

You're living the life you aspired to or dreamed of.

Everybody thinks they're so singular and special, and so "put-upon". That's the worst disease of the Human condition. And the one that the Buddha positions himself to provide the cure.

Strong practice,

--Joe

:lol2:
omg you're beyond being ridiculous now Joe
I wasnt aware this vehicle was co-hosted by you for 40 years, has nothing to do with feeling special...just your interpretation upon perception...very much bs and hot air ;)
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:30 am

fukasetsu wrote:omg you're beyond being ridiculous now Joe
I wasnt aware this vehicle was co-hosted by you for 40 years, has nothing to do with feeling special...just your interpretation upon perception...very much bs and hot air ;)

Well, if you can't stand somebody agreeing with you, it's no longer my business to try.

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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:41 am

It was just an ignorant remark of you, sorry.

I'm off meeting the sunrise in the dunes, enjoy your sleep US friends. with eyes open or shut
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:01 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:let's take a break... it's 93F down from 109.... how goes it in AZ. I've stayed holed up with my cat Dolly all day... imagine it's just another day for you

Thanks. Another fine day on the lizard ranch and cactus patch, here. Only 101 or 102 today, but didn't really feel a degree over 100. :lol2: Very dry (air).

Some very extensive smoke shreds and congestions at high altitude from the California wildfire at Oroville hung over us yesterday and today. Yes, from as far away as that. It's dimmed the sun ever so slightly and maybe depressed the temperature a few degrees Fahrenheit. Dry, here.

But the cyclone over Baja -- Tropical Storm "Lydia" -- is due to have its northernmost edge reach the desert before midnight here tonight (0700 UTC), so tropical moisture and monsoon-t-storms may return very soon, and possibly in a big way. See if that storm doesn't affect you, too. Stay safe.

Zendo tomorrow morning, so I'll say goodnight,

:Namaste:,

--Joe

EDIT: added a map of the effects expected along the
path of the storm's landfall in Mexico. It will affect USA territory, too.

lidia_path.jpg
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:04 am

fukasetsu wrote:It was just an ignorant remark of you, sorry.

"What goes around, comes around", we say. :lol2:

'night,

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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Seeker242 on Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:39 pm

Caodemarte wrote:Is this something that has to be taught, like a technique, or something that emerges naturally?


Just like compassion, it is something that is often cultivated, but also arises naturally. The Buddha gave instruction on how to perform mudita (sympathetic joy) meditation, just like he gave instructions on how to perform metta meditation. Although, I've never seen mudita specifically take all that much prominence in zen teachings, even though some teachers do talk about it.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:26 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Just like compassion, it is something that is often cultivated, but also arises naturally. The Buddha gave instruction on how to perform mudita (sympathetic joy) meditation, just like he gave instructions on how to perform metta meditation. Although, I've never seen mudita specifically take all that much prominence in zen teachings, even though some teachers do talk about it.


Seeker, little as I know you, you might relate.
As a small kid wherever I walked or whatever I did out of nowhere do thought arise like "oh but there might be little insects between the grass I should not walk there"

these kind of thoughts arise in daily life without having any ideology or philosophy in mind, long before I ever read a book or heared about religion such thoughts arise naturally, in a thoughtless state ones mind is always on other beings spontaneously when it is called for. All this talk about "original mind" is not necessary at all it only creates conceptual designations of "prior to and after awakening"

compassion arises naturally in some many vehicles, many of them have never been in contact with someone wearing a robe or quoting scripture. in this way Zen is not different from Christianity if theres always the message of "you cannot know in your deluded state" etc Zen is a wonderful tool but in your face Zen is just talk, as if anyone who's not in accordance which are metely interpretations upon perception -view therefore must be deluded and all they do is from a deluded state, as if every being is sick until they've been verified by Doctor Ch'an or Medicine Buddha. It only creates division in consciousness.

everyone is born with a heart, some just cover it up more then others, but compassion only "after awakening" no sorry not my experience in life at all.

wisdom/compassion is a dharma, meaning it arises dependendly, thus how the function manifests is dependend on the vehicle, form is emptiness, but emptiness is also form. Thus it is unpredictable in its outcome even to the "awakened"
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby TTT on Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:00 am

Linda Anderson wrote:
fukasetsu wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:Is this something that has to be taught, like a technique, or something that emerges naturally?


Naturally, spontaneously.

In 4 days, septmeber 5th I will follow the Bodhicaryavatara - FPMT Basic Program in Amsterdam and the week after the Mind training - Lojong course follows. Can do no harm to expand my 'knowledge' or training I'd say, for the sake of all beings. :)


That's great Marcel... I know zen teachers who teach Lojong... they say that they feel it's helpful (needed) in zen. I heartily agree.

be well and enjoy
linda


Norman Fisher is big on that.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1579 ... compassion
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:30 am

yes, TTT...

Norman Fischer is one of the folks I was thinking about. Back in the day, I sat with him for a short time... he was too far away to keep going. good folks with him... I was inspired to try bec he was doing a teaching for a month on Dogen's Instructions for the Cook. Then he started with Lojong....
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:33 am

fukasetsu wrote:everyone is born with a heart, some just cover it up more then others, but compassion only "after awakening" no sorry not my experience in life at all.

There may yet be time... . :tongueincheek:

Seriously, though, true Compassion has nothing to do with ordinary "compassion". The only way you'll be utterly convinced of this fact is to awaken, through effective practice of the right kind at the right time. Luck is involved, as is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Got blood? Sweat? Tears? Then, you qualify. Now all you need is the right teacher. And more luck. Strong practice,

--Joe

ps this is true of all of us. You are not special, as you know. I thank my lucky stars, parents, friends, teachers, enemies, armies, the postman, milkman, and the Dutch inventor of the Telescope. "Hail!"
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby TTT on Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:56 am

Linda Anderson wrote:yes, TTT...

Norman Fischer is one of the folks I was thinking about. Back in the day, I sat with him for a short time... he was too far away to keep going. good folks with him... I was inspired to try bec he was doing a teaching for a month on Dogen's Instructions for the Cook. Then he started with Lojong....


He is a bit of a poet, right?
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:48 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Seriously, though, true Compassion has nothing to do with ordinary "compassion". The only way you'll be utterly convinced of this fact is to awaken,


That wasn't the point, the point is that you have an unique fingerprint as well as dna, there is no true function without manifestation so welcome back to the dream where you seem to have locked everyone up in a mental picture of who has experienced awakening or not and is a vessel for true or ordinary. The nature of ignorance is the nature of Buddha, caution with interpretations upon perception via the internet.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:44 pm

TTT wrote:
Linda Anderson wrote:yes, TTT...

Norman Fischer is one of the folks I was thinking about. Back in the day, I sat with him for a short time... he was too far away to keep going. good folks with him... I was inspired to try bec he was doing a teaching for a month on Dogen's Instructions for the Cook. Then he started with Lojong....


He is a bit of a poet, right?


yes, he is... a dear soul
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:52 pm

Joe,
there are also 84,000 ways to the thing that is not a word.... and stories of ancient dharma combat about who would take over when the master died.... and stories of the illiterate real man, a gardener if I remember, who shone above the others. dharma arises uniquely in each one of us....

:ghug:
linda
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:46 am

Marcel,

fukasetsu wrote:you seem to have locked everyone up in a mental picture of who has experienced awakening or not and is a vessel for true or ordinary.

That's likely just an interpretation upon perception that you are suffering from, dunno why. It's likely alleviable. See Guo Gu! :lool:

I'll post more material on-topic to this thread in the next days, and I hope others will, too. "Sympathetic Joy" is a nice topic. Holiday here on 4 Sept.

Strong practice,

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:06 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:there are also 84,000 ways to the thing that is not a word.... and stories of ancient dharma combat about who would take over when the master died.... and stories of the illiterate real man, a gardener if I remember, who shone above the others. dharma arises uniquely in each one of us....

Indeed, many stories. One Reality.

(which the stories point to).

No stories are needed. Just awaken, at least once, and all stories are written (and discarded) by yourself.

Then there can be strong practice.

Not leaving-out "Sympathetic Joy", as a function that comes along.

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:08 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Marcel,
That's likely just an interpretation upon perception that you are suffering from, dunno why. It's likely alleviable. See Guo Gu!


:lol2:
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:43 pm

Fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Seriously, though, true Compassion has nothing to do with ordinary "compassion". The only way you'll be utterly convinced of this fact is to awaken,

That wasn't the point, the point is that you have an unique fingerprint as well as dna, there is no true function without manifestation so welcome back to the dream where you seem to have locked everyone up in a mental picture of who has experienced awakening or not and is a vessel for true or ordinary. The nature of ignorance is the nature of Buddha, caution with interpretations upon perception via the internet.

No.

This is not personal. Please review the truth of this: it is not personal.

I distinguish between "compassion" as popularly supposed-about ("understood"), and true Compassion (karuna). And I distinguish between them because they are different.

Any Ch'an-person (Zen-person; etc.) will tell you the same thing: they are different, and that's what makes them a "they" (and not just an "it"). Indeed, this difference is not personal to any person. I'm not special in this way. Nor are you special. Ordinary compassion and true Compassion are just different. To experience the difference, one must be awake.

--Joe
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