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The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:27 am

Linda, hi,

Linda Anderson wrote:Joe.... did you read the second half of my sentence..... which is saying same!!!!

.... step by step in the dark. yet, it is wise to apply good sense to our actions lest we wind up as "do-gooers" who don't have a true connection to what is called for. there is no black and white in awakening....

Yes, Linda, and hat's off to you for it.

I emphasize true Compassion and its distinction from "ordinary so-called compassion", because "good sense" has nothing to do with the arising and exercise of true Compassion, whereas true Wisdom has everything to do with its arising and exercise.

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:29 am

yes, I know :ninja:

there is no such thing as ordinary compassion.... it's call do-gooder belief

good sense only tells us that we are still deluded.. perhaps we should be cautious thinking we know.....
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:35 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:YES, they are bona fide zen teachers.... even now.

Right, they may go "independent", as some teachers have gone, when they deviated from the behavior or ways that their transmitting lineage took as standard, and representative. Teachers like Robert Aitken Roshi come to mind, who left the Sanbo Kyodan to found the Diamond Sangha; and John Tarrant Roshi, who was cast out of the Diamond Sangha for behavior un-becoming, to found the California Zen Institute. Well, there are others besides, probably.

It's lovely that what is called for arises of it's own accord.

When it does, at all times, one is Awake, in miraculous, original mind.

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:37 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:yes, I know :ninja:

there is no such thing as ordinary compassion.... it's call do-gooder belief

Thank you!

Linda wrote:good sense only tells us that we are still deluded.. perhaps we should be cautious thinking we know.....

Always.

always,

:Namaste:

--Joe

ps And "perhaps we should be cautious thinking" we DON'T know..... .
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:40 am

So, you are dismissing Robert Aitken and John Tarrant? You insist on purity? I don't. It's in the heart, not the practice.... and I had a Soto teacher also ... same... all good souls.

I've seen enough dharma wars.... I am done with that.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:46 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:So, you are dismissing Robert Aitken and John Tarrant?

Not me. Why do you think that? It's their original lineage who dismissed them.

(You know my history, and the gratitude and family-feeling I have for Aitken and Tarrant, etc.)

Linda wrote:You insist on purity? I don't.

I had nothing to do with their being dismissed and cut-off, no.

Linda wrote:It's in the heart, not the practice....

Too late!, to write your amicus brief to their original lineages! Their decision has been made, and is final.

Linda wrote:and I had a Soto teacher... same... all good souls.

I don't get the relevance of this. I'll let it go.

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:50 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:So, you are dismissing Robert Aitken and John Tarrant?

Not me. Why do you think that? It's their original lineage who dismissed them.

(You know my history, and the gratitude and family-feeling I have for Aitken and Tarrant, etc.)

--Joe


yes, I know that Joe... what do you mean by this ....

Joe wrote:
Right, they may go "independent", as some teachers have gone, when they deviated from the behavior or ways that their transmitting lineage took as standard, and representative. Teachers like Robert Aitken Roshi come to mind, who left the Sanbo Kyodan to found the Diamond Sangha; and John Tarrant Roshi, who was cast out of the Diamond Sangha for behavior un-becoming, to found the California Zen Institute. Well, there are others besides, probably.


As far as I know, we make the lineage over so-called time, past and present.
Not last night,
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:54 am

let's take a break... it's 93F down from 109.... how goes it in AZ. I've stayed holed up with my cat Dolly all day... imagine it's just another day for you
Not last night,
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Melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:56 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:yes, I know that Joe... what do you mean by this ....


    Joe wrote:Right, they may go "independent", as some teachers have gone, when they deviated from the behavior or ways that their transmitting lineage took as standard, and representative. Teachers like Robert Aitken Roshi come to mind, who left the Sanbo Kyodan to found the Diamond Sangha; and John Tarrant Roshi, who was cast out of the Diamond Sangha for behavior un-becoming, to found the California Zen Institute. Well, there are others besides, probably.
Yes, that's what I wrote.

Evidently a teacher who has been cut off, disowned, by their original lineage, is not doing things the way that the lineage respects and condones. It's not me who has cut them off from their roots as representatives of those lineages. They've become independent and something besides what those lineages represent. That's just the fact only, and I say nothing about whether I like it or not. I'm neutral on the two parties in the cases mentioned, and as far as Sympathetic Joy goes, if they're happy, I'm happy. Of course, Aitken Roshi has passed away, and has left a good number of successors.

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:06 am

then I don't understand, I hear you dismiss them because they have left the lineage/the lineage has left them ... I suppose technically that's the way it's viewed.... as I said, I'm done with dharma wars... all good souls. I can't subscribe to who is a true teacher based on such formalities... the lineage concept has it's faults .... go back to the suffering in the Eido Shamano thread about who is or is not a valid lineage holder. Where is Spike?
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:19 am

Linda Anderson wrote:then I don't understand, I hear you dismiss them because they have left the lineage/the lineage has left them ... I suppose technically that's the way it's viewed.... as I said, I'm done with dharma wars... all good souls. I can't subscribe to who is a true teacher based on such formalities... the lineage concept has it's faults .... go back to the suffering in the Eido Shamano thread about who is or is not a valid lineage holder. Where is Spike?


Linda there's attachment everywhere, even after "awakening" maintaining lineages involves pride and economic reasons too, no religion or path is free from this. the dharma isnt fixed in a 1000 years there might not even be Buddhadharma as we know it, or Jesusdharma or Brahmadharma lol

lets remain detached and trust in Universal functioning, the dharma evolves along with the needs of sentient beings.
as to why the "awakened" fall back to harmful behaviour is clear, Sir Bob has written some wonderful essays about that including many others from first hand experience. Also theres such a thingy as impermanence in Buddhism. And emptiness of personal constructs must be recognized, inka is being handed out sometimes while not ripe and ready, it happens, in Japan its known that inka is being given to family members to keep the temple in the family.

but dont take my word for it, all hot air deluded theory stuff from this vehicle :PP:
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:27 am

Sorry Fuki, you are not getting off that easy.... no hot air from you... own it.

yes, as you say, "the dharma evolves with the needs of sentient beings".... then why is there such adoration for lineage?
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:40 am

Not sure Linda, all I know is its not in my character or culture, for instance US and eastern cultures might be more patriotic or proud of what they have "founded" opposed to where I was raised, combination of the individual with culture perhaps. Not saying its all bad but attachment to it would be contradictionary to the Buddhas teachings. In the end all will go such is impermanence. The awakened will go to, when they pass through that gate they all end up dreaming inhabiting bodies again. perhaps theyre afraid to be "born" in another tradition :lol2:

it's all fine by me, though I cant be molded into traditions as such, I gave up my will, we'll see. all that matters is that we evolve collectively as timeless beings, eventhough all our lives are being dreamed simultaniously, time flows in all directions. Lets heal together. :ghug:

sorry not Ch'an talk there... an "angel" whispered it in my ear.
funny how where so attached to words.... self no self God mind no-mind Buddha Brahma...I understand it can be confusing for others but it doesnt distract me, just an appearance-word.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:51 am

fukasetsu wrote:Not sure Linda, all I know is its not in my character or culture, for instance US and eastern cultures might be more patriotic or proud of what they have "founded" opposed to where I was raised, combination of the individual with culture perhaps. Not saying its all bad but attachment to it would be contradictionary to the Buddhas teachings. In the end all will go such is impermanence. The awakened will go to, when they pass through that gate they all end up dreaming inhabiting bodies again. perhaps theyre afraid to be "born" in another tradition :lol2:

it's all fine by me, though I cant be molded into traditions as such, I gave up my will, we'll see. all that matters is that we evolve collectively as timeless beings, eventhough all our lives are being dreamed simultaniously, time flows in all directions. Lets heal together. :ghug:

sorry not Ch'an talk there... an "angel" whispered it in my ear.
funny how where so attached to words.... self no self God mind no-mind Buddha Brahma...I understand it can be confusing for others but it doesnt distract me, just an appearance-word.


It seems pretty simple to me.... beyond attachment and pride there is being.... being "out beyond ideas or knowing or not knowing". that's what I mean. an awakened being has no need for modesty or grandiosity. It occurs to me that this idea of "attachment" is about the same as "original sin" in Christianity.... at the core, I'm not sure that Chan talks....

no doubt, this will cause a few groans....

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing
By Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumi
(1207 - 1273)
English version by Coleman Barks
 
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase each other
doesn't make any sense.
Not last night,
not this morning;
Melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:58 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:then I don't understand, I hear you dismiss them because they have left the lineage/the lineage has left them ... I suppose technically that's the way it's viewed....

Sorry you're not getting it. I don't "dismiss them". They are, anyway near and dear to my heart. It hurts me that you insist on misunderstanding in that way.

Evidently they deviated seriously-enough from their lineages' ways for their lineages to take action. It's thus natural that the lineage should announce publicly their dis-owning of the teachers. I personally salute Aitken and Tarrant for nonetheless afterwards going independent and doing the difficult thing of founding, essentially, a new lineage, starting with each of them, from scratch. And I remain neutral about how their original lineages feel about them. I have no beef.

I doubt that they were cut-off for trying to teach "Loving Kindness", or "Sympathetic Joy" in their sanghas (in fact, I know that these were not the issues at stake), but if the lineages felt they must cut off a teacher for introducing such innovations, I'd still remain neutral: a lineage is a lineage for its reasons, and has an interest in its future continuance and continued transmission, along the lines that it has set, and that it maintains. Nuff said.

Can Fuki muster Sympathetic Joy for the happiness of the opposing team when it defeats his favorite football team? Or not? That is the question... .

--Joe
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:06 am

desert_woodworker wrote:Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote:then I don't understand, I hear you dismiss them because they have left the lineage/the lineage has left them ... I suppose technically that's the way it's viewed....

Sorry you're not getting it. I don't "dismiss them". They are, anyway near and dear to my heart. It hurts me that you insist on misunderstanding in that way.

Evidently they deviated seriously-enough from their lineages' ways for their lineages to take action. It's thus natural that the lineage should announce publicly their dis-owning of the teachers. I personally salute Aitken and Tarrant for nonetheless afterwards going independent and doing the difficult thing of founding, essentially, a new lineage, starting with each of them, from scratch. And I remain neutral about how their original lineages feel about them. I have no beef.

I doubt that they were cut-off for trying to teach "Loving Kindness", or "Sympathetic Joy" in their sanghas (in fact, I know that these were not the issues at stake), but if the lineages felt they must cut off a teacher for introducing such innovations, I'd still remain neutral: a lineage is a lineage for its reasons, and has an interest in its future continuance and continued transmission, along the lines that it has set, and that it maintains. Nuff said.

Can Fuki muster Sympathetic Joy for the happiness of the opposing team when it defeats his favorite football team? Or not? That is the question... .

--Joe


Sorry if I"m not getting it Joe, maybe I will. Yes, I know that they are also near and dear to you.... we've talked about it. The part I don't get is why lineage remains so important and why it is not a living and changing entity. It's not your design, but you don't seem to argue... I do. I've been around long enough to see that nobody is operating from as fully awakened .... it's called dharma politics.

ofc, teaching sympathetic joy was not the issue. the issues were manufactured in the power struggle. :lol2: I have no expectations for Fuki
Last edited by Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:08 am

very much so Joe, you haven't been reading much of my footy talks then. I've actively even in the past tried, with some succes, brought hooligans of ajax and feyenoord together after the death of one "fan" in the arena of sports we're all Brothers, win and loss is a fantasy the conditioned mind adds to perception, sure part of the "play" is to try to win, but if my team loses I cant help to feel joy if the other team lifts the cup. it sucked in 2008 when the red wings lost the cup, everyone was destroyed, but when I saw the pens lift the cup I felt so much joy in their joy, its like being a mirror.

Im almost daily "teaching" friends and family about interpretations upon perception especially in something emotional for most beings as team sport, dont worry about me in that sense, for sport fans Ive received Inka :lol2:

if hooligans were islamic fundamentalists, then I re-radicalilized-word at least 50 by now. not all work hsppens in temples or in robes. not all is about "awakening" as known in Zen

thanks Linda, I think we'll have a split thread tomorrow :)
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby Linda Anderson on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:13 am

not sure why, but why a split?
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby fukasetsu on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:16 am

Linda Anderson wrote: I have no expectations for Fuki


:dance:

Thanks Linda, took my mom 40 years even though some residue remains in her psyche, but she's a mom afterall.

As a kid I felt choked by being objectified by society, family, friends, school, lovers etc everyone was always having dreams and expectations for the future and thought I was odd for being different, much ado about nothing, live, breath and rest, everything happens by itself.
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Re: The Other (Forgotten?) Side of Compassion

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:18 am

Linda,

Linda Anderson wrote: The part I don't get is why lineage remains so important and why it is not a living and changing entity.

That's off topic.

I can recommend that the best people to ask about the ins-and-outs of lineage are the lineage-holders. And I think that your apparent assumption that a lineage is not "living and changing" is unwarranted. For details, see the lineage holders themselves (ask a teacher here, say).

There are evidently limits to changes that would be welcome: that's what makes (and keeps) a lineage ...as a lineage. Not too difficult to understand after all, eh? But do ask the right people. Not in this thread.

--Joe
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