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The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:57 pm

This present life, family, planet, is the pure land. It is for us to wake up to it. --Joe
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:07 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:This present life, family, planet, is the pure land. It is for us to wake up to it. --Joe


Yes, that's what I want to do everyday of my life, though it's not always easy. When I am sad or angry, though, I just need to say Namu-Amida-Butsu, and my mind returns to the Pure Land, no matter my present situation.
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:26 pm

BB,

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:This present life, family, planet, is the pure land. It is for us to wake up to it. --Joe

Yes, that's what I want to do everyday of my life, though it's not always easy. When I am sad or angry, though, I just need to say Namu-Amida-Butsu, and my mind returns to the Pure Land, no matter my present situation.

If you're interested, I hope you may have a chance to practice Ch'an or Zen Buddhism with teacher and sangha. Then, say on retreat or sesshin, sudden-awakening might happen. You'd then have a good long opportunity to live life without any palliatives, like recitation, and will immediately participate in true Wisdom and true Compassion, for perhaps weeks or months, without vexations or strife. Wishes,

--Joe
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:39 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:You'd then have a good long opportunity to live life without any palliatives, like recitation...


Zen masters throughout history have recommended Buddha-name recitation as a meditation device (like a koan), as an aid to mindfulness, concentration, and attaining samadhi.

The Ōbaku-shū emphasized the taking of various precepts and also observed the Vinaya of the Dharmaguptaka tradition as well as sutra translation. But perhaps most obvious to the Japanese was their use of nembutsu[16] and also their use of the "nembutsu kōan" which entailed the practice of reciting the name of Amitabha while holding in one's mind the kōan, "Who is reciting?"[8] While foreign to the Japanese (despite this "dual practice" being introduced in Japan as early as the late 13th century),[17] this was very common in Ming period Ch'an, where there was no sectarian divide between Pure Land Buddhists and Ch'an practitioners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cbaku


It is an insult, therefore, referring to Buddha-name recitation as a "palliative," especially on the general Mahayana discussion forum.

pal·li·a·tive
(of a medicine or medical care) relieving pain without dealing with the cause of the condition.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/palliative
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:52 pm

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:You'd then have a good long opportunity to live life without any palliatives, like recitation...

Zen masters throughout history have recommended Buddha-name recitation as a meditation device (like a koan), as an aid to mindfulness, concentration, and attaining samadhi.

It is an insult, therefore, referring to Buddha-name recitation as a "palliative," especially on the general Mahayana discussion forum.

pal·li·a·tive
(of a medicine or medical care) relieving pain without dealing with the cause of the condition.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/palliative

I wouldn't take it as such (as an insult).

I think you claim that a recitation at times changes the moment for you. That is a palliative.

Sudden-awakening is the dissolution of the cause of distress. Killing the root. Not mollifying the achy branches.

If the palliative needs to be taken again, and again, one can be all the more sure that the root is still intact. The more radical and punctilious of the methods of already-radical Ch'an and Zen Buddhist practice indeed obviate palliatives. One can do very well to demonstrate -- prove -- this to oneself at least once in life, and it is my hope for all who are interested that they may have that consummation, for all Beings. That is why I mention it.

--Joe
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:09 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Sudden-awakening is the dissolution of the cause of distress. Killing the root. Not mollifying the achy branches.

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:
The Ōbaku-shū emphasized the taking of various precepts and also observed the Vinaya of the Dharmaguptaka tradition as well as sutra translation. But perhaps most obvious to the Japanese was their use of nembutsu[16] and also their use of the "nembutsu kōan" which entailed the practice of reciting the name of Amitabha while holding in one's mind the kōan, "Who is reciting?"[8] While foreign to the Japanese (despite this "dual practice" being introduced in Japan as early as the late 13th century),[17] this was very common in Ming period Ch'an, where there was no sectarian divide between Pure Land Buddhists and Ch'an practitioners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cbaku


Doubling down on this insult is inappropriate, especially on the general Mahayana discussion forum.

This is a good time for me to say the Nembutsu. :Namaste:
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:36 pm

Joe wrote:Sudden-awakening is the dissolution of the cause of distress. Killing the root. Not mollifying the achy branches.


Yes.

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:Doubling down on this insult is inappropriate, especially on the general Mahayana discussion forum.


It's nothing personal Boatman, the "cause of stress" itself is a product of the "persona" its grasping and rejecting, aversion and attachment :)
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:39 pm

fukasetsu wrote:It's nothing personal Boatman, the "cause of stress" itself is a product of the "persona" its grasping and rejecting, aversion and attachment :)


I just think we should be more careful to use ecumenical and irenic language on the general Mahayana forum. A majority of the world's Mahayana Buddhists, regardless of school or sect, practice Buddha-name recitation.

For example, Tibetan Buddhists chant Om Mani Padme Hum, the mantra of Avalokitesvara. They also chant the name of Amida Buddha, for the purpose of realizing Amida as one's true nature:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra_techniques_(Vajrayana)#Deity_yoga
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:52 pm

I understand Boatman, to me only Joe is not criticising/insulting you or your practise.
He is only sharing his observations and I think there's something to see in his words, no matter who is reading.

Not long ago (a year or 2 I guess) I also thought Joe was either picking on me, or insulting me etc or my practise. But it took me a while to see he only said things in my best interest (without him being "right or wrong") I was often vexated by Joe's posts towards me but later I saw through the charade of my own habitual defense system of "self" and from that moment on his words are an inspiration to me.

I'm not saying my story applies to you perse, I'm just saying we sometimes have to get used to the way people speak, like for instance it may take a while to appreciate a certain flavour of speech just as with music. Since we're creatures of habit we often don't pay attention to what is really being said or heared, if we think it's an insult it might have to do with ourselfs instead of the other party. If I know Joe a bit he would never mean anything as an insult no matter how harsh or soft words might come across.

Just my 2 cents, as ever I'm on no side, not even my own. :lol2:
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:57 pm

fukasetsu wrote:not even my own.


Well, of course. There is no "self."
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:06 pm

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:Well, of course. There is no "self."


Thus I have heared ;)

Guo Gu (among others) has been very helpful in the recognition that even in the "deepest" of experiences I had, self-grasping is very subtle (or gross) and its roots run deep, very deep. Claiming there is no self conceptually often does more harm then it's liberating.

Anyways, again just sharing out of experience, not saying anything about you in specific.
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:19 pm

fuki,

fukasetsu wrote:If I know Joe a bit he would never mean anything as an insult no matter how harsh or soft words might come across.

Well, I once asked the English fellow with the personal "Zen"-manifesto who had never practiced to admit that he is, after all, despite many back-and-forths here, and despite the popular books he says he read 40 years ago, nothing but "a long-eared donkey", words I found in Linji's or Ma-tsu's record. Alas, he wouldn't admit it, but held fast to his manifesto, and even told teachers here that they are "wrong" if they didn't accept the claim in his manifesto. :lol2:

This wasn't so much on my part an impulse or attempt to insult him as it was to discredit his insistences. Besides, I don't think he was capable of being insulted: he was so utterly convinced in his uninformed calcified way.

Sorry if I ever hassled you, Marcel (I'm sure I did; and you are always so civil). When we meet, we can put on the gloves and you can give me your best shot.

Then, we'll sit 7-day sesshin or Ch'an retreat.

--Joe
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:29 pm

This picture is the Dalai Lama blessing a statue of Amida Buddha. I guess His Holiness didn't get the memo about letting go of palliatives:

Image
His Holiness the Dalai Lama consecrating the Amitabha statue at Saihoji Temple in Nagano, Japan. Photo/Tenzin Choejor/OHHDL
https://www.dalailama.com/news/2010/awa ... -buddhists


I just think we should be more careful to use ecumenical and irenic language on the general Mahayana forum. I think His Holiness would agree on this.
Last edited by Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:30 pm

Ok deal I will punch the invisible men and see what will happen :daisy:
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:34 pm

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:This picture is the Dalai Lama blessing a statue of Amida Buddha. I guess His Holiness didn't get the memo about letting go of palliatives:

He's likely offered incense, and is prostrating. And sounding the dorje. I doubt he's reciting. But, we don't know. And he authored the memo.

--Joe
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Caodemarte on Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:05 pm

In Buddhism all methods are expedient means, shiny baubles, sometimes palliatives, but always to be abandoned like a raft after crossing the stream. Mahayana Buddhists were enjoined to use ecumenical and irenic language from the beginning of the Mahayana. Trust the Dalai Lama on this point, but if not trust the Mahayana sutras. Meaningless and mindless partisanship is damaging waste of time (not that it doesn't happen).
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:25 pm

Caodemarte wrote:In Buddhism all methods are expedient means, shiny baubles, sometimes palliatives, but always to be abandoned like a raft after crossing the stream.


I agree. That includes zazen as well.

Caodemarte wrote:Meaningless and mindless partisanship is damaging waste of time (not that it doesn't happen).


I also agree here. It has no place on a general Mahayana sub-forum.
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Caodemarte on Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:30 pm

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:In Buddhism all methods are expedient means, shiny baubles, sometimes palliatives, but always to be abandoned like a raft after crossing the stream.


I agree. That includes zazen as well.

Caodemarte wrote:Meaningless and mindless partisanship is damaging waste of time (not that it doesn't happen).


I also agree here. It has no place on a general Mahayana sub-forum.


Yes to both, with the addition that such mindless partisanship should have no place anywhere. :p:
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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:32 pm

Caodemarte wrote:Yes to both, with the addition that such mindless partisanship should have no place anywhere. :p:


Yes, I agree. :Namaste:
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

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Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:28 am

I would like to please explain one of the major reasons why I don't believe that Amitabha is a literal Buddha, external to ourselves, and that the Pure Land is a literal place, for after we die.

In the Pali scriptures, which are analogous to the Chinese Agamas of the Mahayana canon, the Buddha never mentions Amitabha or the Pure Land. He also teaches that we are to be a light unto ourselves, seeking no external refuge.

As a Mahayana Buddhist, therefore, I interpret Amitabha and the Pure Land as symbolic of personal enlightenment, as the innately pure mind which we uncover through Buddhist practices. This is what Zen/Ch'an masters have taught for centuries regarding Pure Land practice.

When seen in this light, Pure Land practice is for the same purpose as recollection or mindfulness of the Buddha as practiced in Theravada Buddhism. The main difference is that, in Mahayana Buddhism, we can practice it with more than one Buddha to choose from, rather than Shakyamuni alone.
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"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

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