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Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Discussion of general East-Asian Mahayana Buddhism, Sutras & Shastras.

Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby bokki on Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:17 pm

Caodemarte, Sir,
while reading ur posts i c a constant understanding.
out of this, linguistically, id like 2 ask u d meaning of ur nick, stupid q, but im just interested.
not a dhrm q, just what or anything, it means? Thank you. can i call u Cao?
b
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby jundo on Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:40 pm

Caodemarte wrote: I would suggest that many of ancient Zen teachers were highly educated, not superstitious, and believed that fact always trumped faith. Many were not and did not. It is always a mistake to assume that we are always more enlightened than all our ancestors or always worse than them. I suspect you know all this better than me, but thought it useful to remind us all how complex the past is.


Hi Caodemarte,

I always imagine a husband looking up from a book (or whatever they will have then) and commenting to his wife (or whatever we will have then) a couple of hundred years from now, "Martha, can you believe what it says here, that folks way back in the 21st Century still believed in gravity?!?" We certainly all carry our own misinformation and superstitions today, and do not realize so.

That being said, even the most highly educated individuals of the past simply did not have the historical and other information that we now have on Buddhist history, let alone about most other fields of knowledge. Of course, faith is faith, and that has not changed. I do not discount the power and value of faith. But no amount of faith will serve to change the actual authorship of the Lotus Sutra, save in a figurative or symbolic sense. I do believe that the Lotus Sutra is, in fact, the "teachings of the Buddha" if we simply approach it in such way.

But, then again, don't trust me: I still believe in gravity! :blush:

Gassho, J
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby Caodemarte on Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:59 pm

bokki wrote:Caodemarte, Sir,
while reading ur posts i c a constant understanding.
out of this, linguistically, id like 2 ask u d meaning of ur nick, stupid q, but im just interested.
not a dhrm q, just what or anything, it means? Thank you. can i call u Cao?
b


Cao de Marte means "dog of war" or "dog of Mars" in Portuguese. It was the translated title of a free book of Soviet science fiction stories (remember the Soviet Union?). The title of the lead story really should have been translated as "Puppy of Mars," but I guess that was close enough. The book was on my table when I got my first access to a computer. My eyes came across the title and I used it. It came to have a lot of resonance for me for personal reasons. Thanks for asking and I would perfer the full name or just "C."
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby bokki on Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:20 pm

thank you, C,_(i type badly, thnx for letting me use C)
beautiful nick, Puppy of mars
i was fed with Dostoevsky, Tolstoy Gorky...but prefer Nabokov and of course Bulgakov "master and margarita" is 1 of my favorites.
could u tell me the name or link to the free sf book u mentioned?
Come to think of it the title of this discussion would make a great koan, on the order of why did Bodhidharma come to the West?
LOL LOL a new take on old stuff, i love it, just as Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra. lol nice

Reverend Jundo, C, and any1 else, could u tell me your opinion, what is the main message of Lotus, or messages? iv read it, it has a lot to say, but now im not sure what r d main messages.
Thank u all for living with or within zen, being who u r.
Luall
b
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby jundo on Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:03 am

bokki wrote:
Reverend Jundo, C, and any1 else, could u tell me your opinion, what is the main message of Lotus, or messages? iv read it, it has a lot to say, but now im not sure what r d main messages.


Hi Bokki,

For Zen folks who look to the content of the book (and not so much merely the power of the book itself or merely its name, as in some Nichiren Buddhist Teachings), I would point you to this description by Soto Zen priest and historian Dan Leighton:

... Literally the “Wondrous Dharma Lotus Blossom Sutra,” the Lotus Sutra’s many memorable parables, including children lured out of a burning house and a prodigal son rehabilitated by manual labor, illustrate key ideas of the sutra, especially that all spiritual approaches may serve as beneficial skillful means within the inclusive “One Vehicle” of universal liberation. A curiously self-referential text, central and influential Lotus Sutra images include the following: Śākaymuni Buddha’s prediction of many of his disciples’ future buddhahood, appearance in midair of the stūpa of an ancient buddha who arrives whenever the Lotus Sutra is being taught, a dragon king’s young daughter quickly arriving at enlightenment, ancient bodhisattvas bursting out from under the earth to teach the sutra in the future, and the pivotal revelation of Buddha’s inconceivably long lifespan. ...
http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/vie ... 1-0093.xml


For a bit more detail, I would point you to ... don't laugh, sometimes it really is the best general introduction to something :peace: ... the Wikipedia Description.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Sutra

For a longer description, look through the Introduction to this translation which, by the way, is excellent for its use readability. Especially look at the section "Key Teachings" ...



Gassho, J

SatToday(The Lotus Sutra Realized in each instant of Sitting)
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby bokki on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:44 am

i dont like my nick appearing all over so ill try address a few posts here and finaly ask R J and other zenies about lotus.
Sadaparibhuta wrote:
we vow to "save them all." How is this accomplished
Seeker
That right there is the $20,000 question! :)X
ill bet 1 $ that its a 7.000.000.000$ question, and ill pay 11$ if anyone gives me 10 $, and i know ill go poor.
Spike, thanx again, lol
to mention all your names in my thankfulness would b 2 long, and i wont, but i c it all and am grateful
about here and now, just this, very thankful 4 ur input, ill try and...ask more, lol

Reverend, its always my pleasure to talk 2 u,Thank you 4 the links, i have now read much of it, and d lotus, admittedly a long time ago..but what is your opinion, what is the main message of the lotus. and im asking in a normal, actual, mental, philosophical way, not a zen question.
Reverend, and any older zenie, or any1, whats ur opinion whats the main message of d Lotus Sutra?
thnx all b
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby Caodemarte on Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:11 pm

bokki wrote:....
could u tell me the name or link to the free sf book u mentioned?....b


I don't know of any link or where you could now obtain a copy of this very old book. In Portuguese the name was "Cao de Marte" or "Dog of Mars." There are many better works of Russian science fiction available. And now I am back to topic :) .
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby jundo on Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:16 pm

Lotus Sutra Main Message: Just Sit, the Lotus Thus Realized

... Rise Up from the Cushion and Live Gently to rescue the Sentient Beings by good expedient means ...

... and thus the never dying Buddha Kannon comes to life.

Gassho, J
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby bokki on Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:59 pm

hm, rev, u really make me wonder..hm..but its ok..i dont make the same mistake twice, i do it a dozen times, just to be sure. yours truly b
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby bokki on Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:13 pm

so really? i ask a simple q bout Lotus one vehicle,and
Lotus Sutra Main Message: Just Sit, the Lotus Thus Realized
... Rise Up from the Cushion and Live Gently to rescue the Sentient Beings by good expedient means ...
... and thus the never dying Buddha Kannon comes to life.

so u peddle water by the river, and even dance about it, once u raise from the cushion,
and call on never dying buddha kannon coming to life to entice us...who do u think u talking to, kindergarten kittens? i wonder bout u now..hmm...lol
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby jundo on Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:16 am

I stand in wonder at this universe, but i do not wonder about me. :)

So, let me hear you, Bokki ...

.but what is your opinion, what is the main message of the lotus
??

Gassho, J
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby bokki on Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:31 am

I stand in wonder at this universe, but i do not wonder about me. :)
Sir, if i stand in wonder at the universe, i wonder about myself, 2
if i dont wonder about me, i dont wonder about the universe.
since i do question particulars, its obvious that i question myself 2
if i, in ignorance, ask about Lotus, and you provide such an answer
Lotus Sutra Main Message: Just Sit, the Lotus Thus Realized
... Rise Up from the Cushion and Live Gently to rescue the Sentient Beings by good expedient means ...
... and thus the never dying Buddha Kannon comes to life.


it just makes me wonder about u, and question myself 2
is it not easier , since the question i raised was literal, to express ur thoughts on the main message of the sutra and not bring up the undying coming to life, cushion,sentient beings..?
Sir, y not make up ur mind, zen choo choo clapadoodle, doganesque musings, or straight talk, or post pages so we read about old words
im very very sorry 2 engage u in this way, but im very very willing 2 do all ways when talking 2 u
about the Lotus...ONE VEHICLE
Thank You very much 4 your efforts Sir
Gassho, b
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby jundo on Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:45 am

bokki wrote:Sir, if i stand in wonder at the universe, i wonder about myself, 2
if i dont wonder about me, i dont wonder about the universe.


Beautifully said Bokki.

Yes, a moment of Shikantaza is precisely this Koan Realized, all the Lotus Sutra written and read.

Gassho, J

Ps

"if i stand in wonder at the universe, i wonder about myself ... i wonder bout u now..hmm ... "

Yes, all just the same. Stand in wonderment, but do not wonder about the universe or me or you. Just Don't Know is the clearest Knowing. Lovely.
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby macdougdoug on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:14 am

according to the wiki article its a lot to do with the concept of 'skillful means'
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby Dazzled on Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:52 am

jundo wrote:The Lotus Sutra was certainly written by human authors, although religiously inspired, long after the time of the Buddha.


Yes, - and I think its worth reading what Ajahn Sujato had to say in his short article: "Is the Lotus Sutra Authentic?"

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/is-the-lotus-sutra-authentic/

Kind regards,

D. :hi:

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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby jundo on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:05 pm

Dazzled wrote:
jundo wrote:The Lotus Sutra was certainly written by human authors, although religiously inspired, long after the time of the Buddha.


Yes, - and I think its worth reading what Ajahn Sujato had to say in his short article: "Is the Lotus Sutra Authentic?"

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/is-the-lotus-sutra-authentic/

Kind regards,

D. :hi:

.


Yes, but ...

Does the modern Prius express, and improve upon, the founder Henry Ford's Model-T ... plus have the same basic configuration of seats and wheels and gears? Yes indeed. I would argue that it is faithful to the founder, might be said to be the dream of the founder, and It is even an improvement perhaps. Same for a 777, the Wright Brothers and Kitty Hawk.

Gassho, J
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Re: Why the Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra

Postby Caodemarte on Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:15 pm

The Lotus Sutra is wonderful poetry as well as being a religious document. As such, its authors would probably be surprised to see it treated as a mundane historical document. I suspect they felt that if it expressed the truth of Buddha, it was the word of Buddha (how many U.S. preachers say, "The Word of the Lord is to go to my Church on Sunday" to express their religious inspiration and would be surprised if you ask for a literal citation?). As long we don't miss the point and start becoming literalists we don't decive ourselves.
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