Welcome admin !

It is currently Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:07 am
Pathway:  Board index General Buddhist Discussion Mahayana Buddhism

Pure Land in Zen?

Discussion of general East-Asian Mahayana Buddhism, Sutras & Shastras.

Pure Land in Zen?

Postby TonyD on Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:58 pm

Happy New Year,

I'm wondering if anyone here combines any Pure Land practices with Zen. If so, how do you do that?

Thanks and Gassho
TonyD
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:05 pm

Tony,

My Ch'an shifu had an intent of -- and encouraged us to -- "establish a Pure Land on earth".

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7053
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby TonyD on Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:58 pm

Good idea!
TonyD
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby Guo Gu on Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:40 am

tony,

from the 16th century onward in china, practitioners regularly combined so-called "pure land" practices with "zen." i'm putting these in scare quotes because to many they mean different things.

anyway, one way ppl combined the practices is to recite amitabha buddha's name, then when one reaches a deep concentrated state, one would turn that method into a huatou or critical phrase method and ask: "who's reciting the buddha's name?"

for the late master sheng yen, "building a pure land on earth" is not the pure land of amitabha. this teaching is based on the vimalakirti sutra where it states that when the mind is pure, one's land is pure. all buddhas are already living in their pure lands. the teaching arose in chp 1 of the sutra when shariputra was wondering where is shakyamuni's "pure land," since all buddhas have their respective pure lands. shakyamuni then showed that his pure land is none other than the saha world (samsara) and gave shariputra a glimpse of what shakyamuni sees.

be well,
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.org/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
User avatar
Guo Gu
Teacher
 
Posts: 1339
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:52 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL USA

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby TonyD on Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm

This is great info, thanks and gassho.
TonyD
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby cam101+ on Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:04 am

Well, one is self power, while the other is other power. They are completely different, and exactly the same.
cam101+
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby Sadaparibhuta on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:25 am

Guo Gu wrote:from the 16th century onward in china, practitioners regularly combined so-called "pure land" practices with "zen."


The combined practice of Ch'an and Pure Land may go back further in history than that, I would guess.

Guo Gu wrote:
when one reaches a deep concentrated state, one would turn that method into a huatou or critical phrase method and ask: "who's reciting the buddha's name?"


That's exactly right. The idea of that is our Buddha-nature is no different from Amitabha's, so that in reciting the Buddha-name, we awaken our True Self.
Sadaparibhuta
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:50 am

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby bokki on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:46 am

hi :heya: Sadaparibhuta welcome
That's exactly right. The idea of that is our Buddha-nature is no different from Amitabha's, so that in reciting the Buddha-name, we awaken our True Self.

well GG Roshi went out on a limb again, for the sake of Dharma!
for the late master sheng yen, "building a pure land on earth" is not the pure land of amitabha. this teaching is based on the vimalakirti sutra where it states that when the mind is pure, one's land is pure. all buddhas are already living in their pure lands. the teaching arose in chp 1 of the sutra when shariputra was wondering where is shakyamuni's "pure land," since all buddhas have their respective pure lands. shakyamuni then showed that his pure land is none other than the saha world (samsara) and gave shariputra a glimpse of what shakyamuni sees.

our buddha nature,amitabhas,our true self is the saha world.
ps i hope u dont mind ur ideas being challenged, this is a zen forum, and that u find it pleasing 2 stay and post
b :heya:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA
User avatar
bokki
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby Sadaparibhuta on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:56 am

It's a pretty standard teaching of Zen/Ch'an that the purpose of Pure Land practice is to awaken the Buddha within, to live in the Pure Land here and now, rather than simply petitioning an external Buddha to be reborn in a Pure Land after death.

This is from Sekkei Harada:

In the Zen teaching, no matter how confused, anxious or perplexed we might be, we already are Amida Buddha as we are. This is the teaching of Buddha and the Zen Patriarchs.
It is because we have come to think of the symbolic self as “me” that we do not realize that essentially we are Amida Buddha.
So, in the Zen sect, we teach that when a person chants Namu Amida Butsu, Namu Amida Butsu, Namu Amida Butsu…that this is not done toward some Buddha which is separate from you, but rather you yourself are Amida Buddha and then by calling your own name you enter samadhi (a condition of forgetting the ego-self by being completely absorbed in any certain activity).
This is the way Zen teaches about the Pure Land teaching. So regardless if we are talking about Shakyamuni Buddha or Avalokiteshvara (the bodhisattva of compassion) or Jizo (the bodhisattva of children), in Buddhism the teaching is that there is no Buddha separate from you yourself.
People are free to believe as they wish, but as long as the God or Buddha which you believe in is separate from you, that isn’t good. We must practice with the intention of eliminating that separation as we make prostrations, do practice and enter samadhi.
If you practice in this way, then certainly you will come to realize that you, yourself are the Truth, the natural principle of things.
http://faculty.luther.edu/~kopfg/intern ... Roshi.html


This is from the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch:

Prefect Wei then asked the next question. "I notice that it is a common practice for monks and laymen to recite the name of Amitabha with the hope of being born in the Pure Land of the West. To clear up my doubts, will you please tell me whether it is possible for them to be born there or not.“ "Listen to me carefully, Sir, ” replied the Patriarch, “and I will explain.

According to the Sutra spoken by the Bhagavat in Shravasti City for leading people to the Pure Land of the West, it is quite clear that the Pure Land is not far from here… To those of inferior mentality certainly it is far away, but to superior men we may say that it is quite near.

Although the Dharma is uniform, men vary in their mentality. Because they differ from one another in their degree of enlightenment or ignorance, therefore some understand the Law quicker than others.

While ignorant men recite the name of Amitabha and pray to be born in the Pure Land, the enlightened purify their mind, for, as the Buddha said, ‘When the mind is pure, the Buddha Land is simultaneously pure…

Ordinary men and ignorant people understand neither the Essence of Mind nor the Pure Land within themselves, so they wish to be born in the East or the West. But to the enlightened everywhere is the same.

As the Buddha said, 'No matter where they happen to be, they are always happy and comfortable. ’"Sir, if your mind is free from evil the West is not far from here; but difficult indeed it would be for one whose heart is impure to be born there by invoking Amitabha!…

If we can realize the Essence of Mind at all times and behave in a straightforward manner on all occasions, in the twinkling of an eye we may reach the Pure Land and there see Amitabha.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... atform.htm


This is from the Surangama Sutra:

It is the same with those who practice concentration on the name of Amitabha - they develop within their minds Amitabha’s spirit of compassion toward all sentient life…

…just as one associating with the maker of perfumes becomes permeated with the same perfumes, so he will become perfumed by Amitabha’s compassion, and will become enlightened without any other expedient means.

Blessed Lord! My devotion to reciting the name of Amitabha had no other purpose than to return to my original nature of purity (Buddha-nature) and by it I attained to the state of non-rebirth perseverance (enlightenment).
http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.com/surangama.html


This is from Taming the Monkey Mind--A Guide to Pure Land Practice:

The most common Pure Land practice is the recitation of Amitabha Buddha’s name (Buddha Recitation or Buddha Remembrance). This should be done with utmost faith and a sincere vow to achieve rebirth in the Pure Land.

Along with this popular form of Pure Land, there is a higher aspect, in which Amitabha, the Buddha of Infinite Light and Life, is equated with our Buddha Nature, infinitely bright and everlasting (Self-Nature Amitabha, Mind-Only Pure Land). Thus, to recite the Buddha’s name is to recite the Buddha of our own mind, to return to our own pure mind.
http://www.ymba.org/books/taming-monkey ... d-nutshell


This is from Mind-Seal of the Buddhas by Master Ou-I:

The next passage gives two explanations of the name “Amitabha” – as “infinite light” and as “infinite life”. The literal translation of “Amitabha” is “infinite”…
Infinite light extends through space in all directions; infinite life extends through time and reaches through past, present, and future. The dimensions of space and time interpenetrating are the body of the universe. This body as a whole is the body and land of Amitabha, and this body as a whole is the name of Amitabha.
Thus, the name of Amitabha is the inherently enlightened true nature of sentient beings, and reciting the name of Amitabha reveals this enlightenment…
We must realize that there is no name of Amitabha apart from the mind of infinite light and infinite life that is before us now at this moment, and there is no way for us to penetrate the mind of infinite light and infinite life that is before us now at this moment apart from (reciting) the name of Amitabha.
http://www.ymba.org/books/mind-seal-bud ... s-amitabha


I also recommend reading Buddha of Infinite Light by D. T. Suzuki or Finding Our True Home: Living in the Pure Land Here and Now by Thich Nhat Hanh, for a Zen/Ch'an perspective on Pure Land practice.

I used to chant the name of Amitabha, but now I recite the name of Avalokitesvara instead:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11855
Sadaparibhuta
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:50 am

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby bokki on Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:52 am

Thank you very much, Sir. if i may ask, if
It's a pretty standard teaching of Zen/Ch'an that the purpose of Pure Land practice is to awaken the Buddha within, to live in the Pure Land here and now, rather than simply petitioning an external Buddha to be reborn in a Pure Land after death.

1 how can 1 awaken?
2 what does 1 do after awakening?
Thank You for any answer you provide!
b
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA
User avatar
bokki
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby Sadaparibhuta on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:19 pm

bokki wrote:Thank you very much, Sir. if i may ask, if
It's a pretty standard teaching of Zen/Ch'an that the purpose of Pure Land practice is to awaken the Buddha within, to live in the Pure Land here and now, rather than simply petitioning an external Buddha to be reborn in a Pure Land after death.

1 how can 1 awaken?
2 what does 1 do after awakening?
Thank You for any answer you provide!
b


I'm sorry. I am not an advanced enough practitioner to be able to answer those questions.
Sadaparibhuta
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:50 am

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby bokki on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:34 pm

(LOL sry if waiting, my comp is overheating, i could cook a cup of coffe on it, if i had some rain :) )

Sir Sadaparibhuta
Thank You Sir for this talk. Its my pleasure 2 meet You.
b :heya:
gasho,b
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA
User avatar
bokki
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby Guo Gu on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:48 pm

Sadaparibhuta wrote:
Guo Gu wrote:from the 16th century onward in china, practitioners regularly combined so-called "pure land" practices with "zen."


The combined practice of Ch'an and Pure Land may go back further in history than that, I would guess.


yes, evidence suggests that within chan, it dates back to the end of the 6th to early 7th century in the writings of fourth ancestral master, daoxin's writing.i was referring to chan practitioners regularly combining the practice.
there is, of course, one evidence of a norther song dynasty chan master (yongming yanshou) reciting the buddha's name, but i would be careful to avoid anachronistically project back onto that period what it means to combine the practices. there is no evidence of the impact of yongming yanshou in the larger chan communities in that regard (yet) until 500 yrs later in the late ming. in any case, regular practice of this combined practice is basically late ming.

btw, thank you for sharing all those quotes for all to read. you're on the mark with regard to chan/zen position on reciting the buddha's name. such a position is found in many mahayana scriptures too.

be well,
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.org/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
User avatar
Guo Gu
Teacher
 
Posts: 1339
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:52 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL USA

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby Kim on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Guo Gu wrote:tony,
anyway, one way ppl combined the practices is to recite amitabha buddha's name, then when one reaches a deep concentrated state, one would turn that method into a huatou or critical phrase method and ask: "who's reciting the buddha's name?"


Another way to view this would be to use devotional chant of Amitabha Buddha to enter his mandala, that is, one's own natural state and simple recognise and abide in that state. I think it is marvelous to join these two practices because by combining them the true face can be seen so easily. PL buddhism uses emotional surrender as a tool in accessing the natural state, also called Amitabha Buddha. That is very quick route to the natural state if one is able to open the heart and surrender to Amida. That can save a lot of time on the cushion but on the other hand people should not be bound by a dualistic view, seem themselves sparate from the Buddha, even though anyone with some exposure on emptiness philosophy should be able to crack that. I have discussed this with both zen buddhists and pure land buddhists. It seems both could benefit from each other, join other power (tariki) and self power (joriki).
Kim
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:11 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby Kim on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:18 am

bokki wrote:Thank you very much, Sir. if i may ask, if
1 how can 1 awaken?
2 what does 1 do after awakening?


1. Read this thread and apply the instructions found there: http://zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=11849
2. Extend awake awareness to the whole bodymind.
Last edited by Kim on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kim
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:11 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby bokki on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:27 am

LOL kim, are u just funny, or intentionally playing dumb>?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA
User avatar
bokki
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby Kim on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:46 am

bokki wrote:LOL kim, are u just funny, or intentionally playing dumb>?


I'm sorry, did I miss something?
Kim
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:11 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby bokki on Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:07 pm

LOL LOL LOL u just crack me up cant stop laughing for half an hour know not smiling laughing cant get it to stop LOL LOL LOL oh thnx zfi LOL!!!!
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA
User avatar
bokki
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby bokki on Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:21 pm

im sorry kim, im prone to impulsive behaviour, its not u, but THANK you, im still smiling
your friend
b :heya:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain
burst into flames

-Linda Anderson, aka LA
User avatar
bokki
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Pure Land in Zen?

Postby Kim on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:09 pm

OK.
Kim
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:11 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland


Return to Mahayana Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest