Welcome admin !

It is currently Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:31 pm
Pathway:  Board index General Buddhist Discussion Mahayana Buddhism

The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Discussion of general East-Asian Mahayana Buddhism, Sutras & Shastras.

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby partofit22 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:33 am

desert_woodworker wrote:hi, BB,

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:According to the Sensei, Zen and Shinshu are the same,

That's just "The official story".

Baseball and Football are "the same": They are sports.

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:something that has always stuck with me.

Healthy to peel it off.

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:I think he was speaking of sameness at the ultimate level, rather than external appearances.

There's no ultimate. Only Alan Watts thought so (and talked that way, misleadingly). It's wobbly turtles all the way down... .

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:As for myself, I have never been the official member of any temple or Buddhist tradition.

To be a part of a sangha is to participate in one of the three jewels (and likely in all three of them). The three legs make the tripod of the minimum number of supports ("Treasures") that make a Buddhist practitioner (and make the larger ensemble).

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:Alan Watts kept a healthy distance from official institutions as well, which he said helped him to maintain his impartiality and objectivity.

Wouldn't say "healthy", if I were kindly advising others.

Alas, the feller's institution was the Public House, and its equivalent when in USA. He died of 'over-participation' there. Watts' autobiography is very good reading. He was still alive, though, when he wrote its last chapter. But the title of the auto-bio is telling-enough: "IN MY OWN WAY". He was his own obstacle, as so many are.

--Joe

t_a_t_w_down.jpg


I like turtles ..
partofit22
 
Posts: 4897
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:36 pm

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Caodemarte on Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:10 am

desert_woodworker wrote: at the ultimate level, rather than external appearances.

There's no ultimate. Only Alan Watts thought so (and talked that way, misleadingly). It's wobbly turtles all the way down... .

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:Alan Watts kept a healthy distance from official institutions as well, which he said helped him to maintain his impartiality and objectivity.

Wouldn't say "healthy", if I were kindly advising others.

Alas, the feller's institution was the Public House, and its equivalent when in USA. He died of 'over-participation' there. Watts' autobiography is very good reading. He was still alive, though, when he wrote its last chapter. But the title of the auto-bio is telling-enough: "IN MY OWN WAY". He was his own obstacle, as so many are.
[/quote]


Alan Watts was an interesting character. I don't believe he ever claimed to be a spiritual guru, but did publically describe himself as a "spiritual entertainer." When I went to Mt. Baldy I asked about his stay there. A monk paused, and then the said, "Well, he did not like zazen or chanting or the work (samu) and would go AWOL. I asked what part of Zen he liked. The monk said, "He liked the robes, used to wear them all the time. Really loved them. That was about it."
Caodemarte
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:18 am

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Caodemarte on Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:32 am

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:I've been practicing Pure Land Buddhism from a Zen perspective for over two years, under the guidance or influence of several teachers. I am just a lay person, trying to do my best to live out what's normally expected of a lay person in traditionally Buddhist countries.

It's rather presumptuous and sanctimonious when people who've never even met me claim to understand my personal practice better than I do. I'm sorry if I've been enough of a butthead on this forum that some people think they have a right to read my mind over the internet.

In countries like China and Vietnam, the combined practice of Zen and Pure Land has, at least for lay people, been the norm for centuries.

Some people just need to chill out, instead of using the internet to live out their fantasies of being a Zen master.

Image


Yet another person under attack by invisible enemies, who like the last group of invisible enemies, make apparently unfair and unpublished criticisms that only he see of his personal practice.
:ninja:
What would the Dude say? or his buddy Bernie?

I thought only US politicians were "victimized" by the invisible "them." I thought I was the only person entitled to feel so "misunderstood, oh Lord,so misunderstood." I guess we all suffer from the same diseases. Me, you, and that fella (yes, we all see your big red nose Bernie!) behind the tree.
Caodemarte
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:18 am

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby macdougdoug on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:21 am

MODERATION Had to remove a couple of posts for inappropriate language

PS - The posts removed were the harshest of the bunch - there's actually quite a lot of passive/agressive ad hominem going on - could those that are able to please cease and desist.

PPS - And now a few more posts, off topic, moved here: http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=11912
User avatar
macdougdoug
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: France

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Spike on Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:48 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote: at the ultimate level, rather than external appearances.


This quote is misattributed. The author is Boatman Boddhisattva, not desert_woodworker:

by Boatman Bodhisattva on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:52 pm

Boatman Boddhisattva wrote:According to the Sensei, Zen and Shinshu are the same, something that has always stuck with me. I think he was speaking of sameness at the ultimate level, rather than external appearances.
Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow. --R.H.
User avatar
Spike
 
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:15 pm

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:41 pm

Caodemarte wrote:[
What would the Dude say? or his buddy Bernie?


I'm not sure, but I have a pretty good idea of what the Buddha would say:
Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these — ‘You understand this doctrine and discipline? I’m the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You’re practicing wrongly. I’m practicing rightly. I’m being consistent. You’re not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You’re defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!’ — he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


I am sorry for any time, for any reason, in which I've deviated from the above instructions of the Buddha.
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

https://matthewsatori.tumblr.com/
Boatman Bodhisattva
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 am

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:35 am

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:Some people just need to chill out, instead of using the internet to live out their fantasies of being a Zen master.

As best you're able, yes, take that to heart.

(I wish members wouldn't bring-in drug-talk, such as "chill-out". Icch.)

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7203
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:37 am

[james] wrote:
Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:Some people just need to chill out, instead of using the internet to live out their fantasies of being a Zen master.

Maybe he is a "Zen master" :tongueincheek:, or something else ...
In any case, it's useful and maybe helpful not to make assumptions either way.

James, you're a better man than I. And maybe better than a few others, here. :tongueincheek:

BTW, (ALL), I am a woodworker. And practitioner.

Yours in sawdust, and shavings,

(lots of it)

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7203
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:41 am

Spike wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote: at the ultimate level, rather than external appearances.

This quote is misattributed. The author is Boatman Boddhisattva, not desert_woodworker:

by Boatman Bodhisattva on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:52 pm
Boatman Boddhisattva wrote:According to the Sensei, Zen and Shinshu are the same, something that has always stuck with me. I think he was speaking of sameness at the ultimate level, rather than external appearances.

Thanks, Spike!

Keepin' it real. :Namaste:

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7203
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:43 am

partofit22 wrote:I like turtles ..

You 'n me three. --Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7203
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Caodemarte on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:36 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Spike wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote: at the ultimate level, rather than external appearances.

This quote is misattributed. The author is Boatman Boddhisattva, not desert_woodworker:

by Boatman Bodhisattva on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:52 pm
Boatman Boddhisattva wrote:According to the Sensei, Zen and Shinshu are the same, something that has always stuck with me. I think he was speaking of sameness at the ultimate level, rather than external appearances.

Thanks, Spike!

Keepin' it real. :Namaste:

--Joe


Sorry, Joe. I attempting to quote partofit22 who was quoting you and others all the way up to my second-hand Alan Watts story. I should have checked my turtles.
Caodemarte
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:18 am

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:58 pm

While Zen is more well-known in the West, Jodo Shinshu is the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan.

Jodo Shinshu traditionally teaches that we are "saved" just as we are, needing only to recite the Nembutsu, the name of Amida Buddha, with a sincere heart for our future attainment of Buddhahood.

Shinran wrote that those who entrust in the Nembutsu are equal to Maitreya, and that reciting the Nembutsu is a spontaneous expression of gratitude for one's already enlightened true nature.

In the words of Shinran Shonin, "To entrust oneself to the Nembutsu is to already have become a person who realizes wisdom and will attain Buddhahood."

This makes perfect sense if, as Zen Buddhism traditionally teaches, Amida is really our own Buddha-nature, and that Buddha-name recitation is really an expression of our already enlightened true self.

When Jodo Shinshu teaches that we are foolish beings of blind passions, this refers to our petty ego-self. In our Buddha-nature, on the other hand, we are inseparable and indistinct from Amida Buddha. In the words of Shinran Shonin, "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."

These things are explained in the book Buddha of Infinite Light by D. T. Suzuki, who had a Shinshu mother and a Rinzai father.

In the words of Suzuki, "We find our inner self when NAMU-AMIDA-BUTSU is pronounced once and for all. My conclusion is that Amida is our inmost self, and when that inmost self is found, we are born in the Pure Land."

Image
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

https://matthewsatori.tumblr.com/
Boatman Bodhisattva
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 am

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:15 pm

As a side note, Zen traditionally teaches the importance of cultivating mindfulness in every possible activity. I find this to be much easier when I am keeping the name of a Buddha or Bodhisattva in mind.

Amituofo... Amituofo... Amituofo...

Zen masters like Hsuan Hua have recommended Buddha-name recitation, whether silently or out loud, for those who need to improve their concentration and mindfulness.
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

https://matthewsatori.tumblr.com/
Boatman Bodhisattva
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 am

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:24 pm

I think BB is giving quite accurately what is popularly received as "the Official story", and an orthodox view of Pure Land practice from the outside.

As a reminder to Ch'an- and Zen- and Son- and Thien-Buddhist practitioners, I simply reiterate the following. Quite apart from any recitation(s), and apart from any need for familiarity with any metaphoric figures such as "Amida", or etc., or even with the historical Buddha, "Shakyamuni" -- actually of questionable historicity -- we may still, having undertaken correct practice and having favorable causes and conditions, awaken to our true nature, as it is said in the Ch'an- and Zen-Buddhist traditions. Such awakening is indeed a re-birth, and our awakening is then a habitation of this, the pure land, which indeed we discover it to be once we have the eye.

A practitioner will of course choose which practice(s) and practice-orientation suits, and can modify one's practice as practice changes, during the course of practice. "Different colors and fabric-weights to suit the climate".

Thank goodness for variety or diversity, so that practitioners may follow one's individual, temporary, weird ("everything changes... "). Hail!

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7203
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:32 pm

This passage from Sekkei Harada's The Essence of Zen summarizes everything I've shared on this forum regarding Pure Land practice:

During the forty-nine years that Shakyamuni Buddha expounded the Dharma, he never once said, “Believe in me.” Rather he always said, “Believe in the Dharma. Believe in yourself.” This is something you must believe resolutely. If you don’t, the objective of your practice will not be clear...

The practice of Amida Butsu, or Amitabha, is widespread in Japan. This involves chanting “Namu Amida Butsu” while prostrating oneself. In Zen Buddhism, a person who chants “Namu Amida Butsu” is already Amida Butsu. The object toward which prostrations are made, namely, Amida Butsu, and the person making the prostrations are one…

If you have made the resolution to believe, then it isn’t good for the belief to remain. To believe means that there is someone (“you”) who is believing. In other words, if something is truly believed in, then the belief must disappear. I would like you to understand clearly that you must let go of that which is believed in.

The condition of pure belief is absolute. It is a condition where doubts and belief in a dualistic sense have disappeared. Belief and doubt or belief and disbelief are, in the end, the ideas of people. The condition where belief and doubt have disappeared is what we call “The Dharma,” or “The Way,” or “Now."
https://books.google.com/books?id=obuxd ... ..&f=false


The ultimate purpose of Pure Land practice is not belief and disbelief in a dualistic sense, but instead to realize Amida Buddha as our "true self" (Buddha-nature).
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

https://matthewsatori.tumblr.com/
Boatman Bodhisattva
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 am

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:07 pm

BB,

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:The ultimate purpose of Pure Land practice is not belief and disbelief in a dualistic sense, but instead to realize Amida Buddha as our "true self" (Buddha-nature).

To the extent that there are people to continue that methodology, together, GREAT!

Otherwise, it is ...merely wonderful.

To make it a practical wonder, the exponents of the tradition emphasize that one practice formally, with the leader and with the sangha. If one is not a member of such, well, it may remain merely a wonder, and never approach becoming a practical wonder. Alas.

It's the same with Ch'an- and Zen-Buddhist practice, traditions which have always emphasized training and practicing together ...because that's how they are designed.

:Namaste:, All,

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7203
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:56 am

This is a poem from a modern-day Jodo Shinshu Buddhist in Japan, that I think Zen Buddhists can identify with:

You, as you are, you are just right
Your face, body, name, surname,
For you, they are must right.
Whether poor or rich
Your parents, your children,
your daughter-in-law, your grandchildren
They are, all for you, just right.
Happiness, unhappiness, joy and even sorrow
For you, they are just right.
The life that you have walked, is neither good nor bad
For you, it is just right.
Whether you go to hell or to the Pure Land
Wherever you go is just right.
Nothing to boast about, nothing to feel bad about,
Nothing above, nothing below.
Even the day and month that you die,
Even they are just right.
The Life in which you walk together with Amida,
There is no way that it can’t be just right.
When you receive your life as just right
Then a deep and profound faith begins to open up.
(Source: “Just Right” by Goromatsu Maekawa)


You are a Buddha, just as you are.
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

https://matthewsatori.tumblr.com/
Boatman Bodhisattva
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 am

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby desert_woodworker on Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:50 pm

Boatman Bodhisattva wrote:You are a Buddha, just as you are.

And as the Roshi said, "...And you can all use a little improvement". ( -- the late Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, of San Francisco Zen Center) :Namaste:,

And so we practice. To save all Beings. And for improvement of character (bringing out the better).

--Joe
User avatar
desert_woodworker
 
Posts: 7203
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:09 am
Location: southern Arizona, USA

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:01 pm

Purelanders.com is one of my favorite Pure Land resources. The website has numerous quotes from Zen/Ch'an masters on Pure Land practice. Here is an example:

It is because the Mind-only Pure Land exists that we are reborn in the Pure Land of the West. If the mind is not pure, it is impossible to achieve rebirth in the Pure Land...

It is precisely because of the Self-Nature Amitabha that the practitioner must recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West seeking rebirth in the Pure Land – so as to achieve the Self-Nature Amitabha through gradual cultivation. If he merely grasps at the Self-Nature Amitabha but does not recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West, he cannot achieve immediate escape from birth and death...

Thus the answer to your question [‘Are the mind-Only Pure Land and the Self-Nature Amitabha the same as or different from the Western Pure Land and Amitabha in the Pure Land?’] is that they are one yet two BEFORE Buddhahood is attained, two yet one AFTER Buddhahood is attained.
http://purelanders.com/2011/12/11/mind- ... ha-buddha/


Master Yin Kuang here is explaining the multiple levels of understanding Pure Land practice.

Before attaining Buddhahood through Pure Land practice, one perceives Amitabha as an external being. After Buddhahood is attained, one realizes Amitabha as one's own Buddha-nature.

To be reborn into the Pure Land, from this higher perspective, is to uncover the Pure Land as one's innately pure mind, Buddha-nature, through gradual cultivation.

It is because Amitabha is really our true nature that one can attain Buddhahood through the gradual cultivation of reciting his name.

In the words of Shinran Shonin, "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

https://matthewsatori.tumblr.com/
Boatman Bodhisattva
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 am

Re: The Buddhist Churches of America: An Overview

Postby Boatman Bodhisattva on Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:02 pm

Here's another thing worth mentioning. For those who believe the Pure Land is a literal place for after we die, that doesn't mean it's a permanent destination, like a theistic heaven.

Instead, one attains Buddhahood in the Pure Land, and then returns to this world in fulfillment of the Bodhisattva ideal to lead all other beings to enlightenment:
At the end of life, we will be born in the Pure Land and attain Buddhahood, returning at once to this delusional world to guide people to awakening.
http://www.hongwanji.or.jp/english/teaching/


One immediately attains Buddhahood in the Pure Land, because the Pure Land itself is the realm of Nirvana:
The land of bliss is the realm of nirvana, the uncreated;
I fear it is hard to be born there by doing sundry good acts according to our diverse conditions.
Hence, the Tathagata selected the essential dharma,
Instructing beings to say Amida’s Name with singleness, again singleness.
http://shinranworks.com/the-major-expos ... -and-land/
I mean no disrespect to forum members on my ignore list. Gassho. __/\__

"Reciting the name of the Buddha constantly... His own body is the limitless body of Amida, the treasure trees of seven precious gems, the pond of the eight virtues." - Hakuin Ekaku

https://matthewsatori.tumblr.com/
Boatman Bodhisattva
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 am

PreviousNext

Return to Mahayana Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

 
RocketTheme Joomla Templates

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 157 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:44 am

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests