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eight winds...

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Re: eight winds...

Postby fukasetsu on Mon May 05, 2014 2:30 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:"Hey, I've been thrown out of BETTER places than THIS!"


:lol2:

lol, ps, no one has been thrown out since his username is still blue, it seems Pete was moved to leave the bar again due to the whole "praise and blame" thingy. Or perhaps it was like the crow on the palm tree and the coconut falling :PP:

Anyways, when affirming no direction, where's leaving and entering? :>.>:
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Re: eight winds...

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 05, 2014 2:55 pm

Av,

It helps me, too, Av. Don't stifle yourself.

And please don't "hide your light under a bushel".

--Joe

ps (The 8th Grave Precept of "Not Sparing the Dharma Assets", can be interpreted and upheld as:
"The Light of the Dharma cannot be hidden under a bushel, except by ME.")

Michaeljc wrote:
Avisitor wrote:It is not my place to say such things ... I apologize for being rude.

t’s not all negative Av. It helps me/us sort the wheat from the chaff. :)
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Re: eight winds...

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 05, 2014 3:34 pm

F.,

No, I was talking about "Avisitor", who took the thoughtful consideration about commenting on another's "take" on dubious constructs.

I see that you are thinking of "Pete". I wasn't.

--Joe

fukasetsu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:"Hey, I've been thrown out of BETTER places than THIS!"

:lol2:
lol, ps, no one has been thrown out since his username is still blue, it seems Pete was moved to leave the bar again due to the whole "praise and blame" thingy.
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Re: eight winds...

Postby fukasetsu on Mon May 05, 2014 4:12 pm

Since I'm too lazy to give rise to interpretations of mind at the moment regarding people and happenings,
I have no idea what you're talking about, so for the sake of our mutual edification, let it remain so.
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Re: eight winds...

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 05, 2014 5:01 pm

F.,

Tell it to the Judge. --J.

ps (ah, or maybe you read and post by email, and not via the website, and hence you more easily lose contact with context [I'll give you that]).

fukasetsu wrote:Since I'm too lazy to give rise to interpretations of mind at the moment regarding people and happenings,
I have no idea what you're talking about,
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Guo Gu on Tue May 06, 2014 4:18 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:Guo Gu,

There's a stipulation in the Terms of Service for members about not criticizing the practice of another, here. Anyway, I think that's approximately how it reads.

But, now, of course, a Teacher is one whom we ask to teach us, and definitely, please!, to criticize our practice, should that be helpful.



advice/suggestion should only be given when asked and when there's mutual consent. otherwise, medicine becomes poison. not helpful. this would be an instance of incorrect dharma. a teacher is a teacher because there's consent. one person's teacher is another's student; it's just a word. but identifying/fixating on a role, an authority, only leads to suffering of all involved. it obstructs the free flow of selfless dharma.

the truth is, we can learn from everyone. so "criticism" shouldn't be used--just advice and suggestions--in most cases. if criticism is used and it produces a negative effect, it didn't really help the person, then it shows that the expedient means of criticism was inappropriate. the person using it simply engaged in unwholesome speech/action, and would have to shoulder the responsibility and bear the weight of that karma.

this is not to say there shouldn't be teachers and students, but it is the selfless dharma that unties the knots. and the selfless dharma flows through all beings. when it manifests, ppl benefit. no negative results or backfires. selfless dharma is correct dharma. it is correct because it works; it alleviates vexations appropriately. of course there will always be those who harbor negative thoughts toward us or refuse to accept anything different from their own understanding. to them, we just bow. :rbow:

be well,
guo gu
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Re: eight winds...

Postby fukasetsu on Tue May 06, 2014 4:22 pm

Guo Gu wrote:but it is the selfless dharma that unties the knots. and the selfless dharma flows through all beings. when it manifests, ppl benefit. no negative results or backfires. selfless dharma is correct dharma. it is correct because it works; it alleviates vexations appropriately. of course there will always be those who harbor negative thoughts toward us or refuse to accept anything different from their own understanding. to them, we just bow. :rbow:


Well said, thanks :)
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Smoky_Visions on Mon May 19, 2014 2:15 am

Guo Gu wrote:
desert_woodworker wrote:Guo Gu,

There's a stipulation in the Terms of Service for members about not criticizing the practice of another, here. Anyway, I think that's approximately how it reads.

But, now, of course, a Teacher is one whom we ask to teach us, and definitely, please!, to criticize our practice, should that be helpful.



advice/suggestion should only be given when asked and when there's mutual consent. otherwise, medicine becomes poison. not helpful. this would be an instance of incorrect dharma. a teacher is a teacher because there's consent. one person's teacher is another's student; it's just a word. but identifying/fixating on a role, an authority, only leads to suffering of all involved. it obstructs the free flow of selfless dharma.

the truth is, we can learn from everyone. so "criticism" shouldn't be used--just advice and suggestions--in most cases. if criticism is used and it produces a negative effect, it didn't really help the person, then it shows that the expedient means of criticism was inappropriate. the person using it simply engaged in unwholesome speech/action, and would have to shoulder the responsibility and bear the weight of that karma.

this is not to say there shouldn't be teachers and students, but it is the selfless dharma that unties the knots. and the selfless dharma flows through all beings. when it manifests, ppl benefit. no negative results or backfires. selfless dharma is correct dharma. it is correct because it works; it alleviates vexations appropriately. of course there will always be those who harbor negative thoughts toward us or refuse to accept anything different from their own understanding. to them, we just bow. :rbow:

be well,
guo gu


What is it that can obstruct the flow of the selfless dharma? I just can't understand. Isn't the selfless dharma everything there ever was, is, will be? Isn't it the selfless dharma to pose as the selfish non-dharma?
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Smoky_Visions on Mon May 19, 2014 2:18 am

Was there ever an absolute authority, a Zen master, a teacher of life, and his humble, conforming disciple? Wasn't it all just an illusion, a net through which reality just slipped like water and where both "student" and "teacher" learned from each other?
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Re: eight winds...

Postby desert_woodworker on Mon May 19, 2014 4:05 am

SV,

Well, it's only an illusion from a certain point of view, and when one is maturely established at that perspective, one may not any longer need a teacher.

But one cannot claim to have both points of view. If one is not viewing from the point of view of the Dharmakaya, one definitely needs a teacher.

Note, however, that there are stories in the Ch'an tradition in which disciples stayed with their teachers for many years after the disciples' awakening, and in those cases, usually stayed on as attendants to the (usually older) masters. I'd say that, in those cases, "student" and "teacher" had then become more like friends who really revere each other uniquely, or like family members who are bound together by the experience of a common origin and understanding and sharing of life. "Blood is thicker than water".

--Joe

Smoky_Visions wrote:Was there ever an absolute authority, a Zen master, a teacher of life, and his humble, conforming disciple? Wasn't it all just an illusion, a net through which reality just slipped like water and where both "student" and "teacher" learned from each other
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Michaeljc on Mon May 19, 2014 8:03 am

Smoky_Visions wrote:Was there ever an absolute authority, a Zen master, a teacher of life, and his humble, conforming disciple? Wasn't it all just an illusion, a net through which reality just slipped like water and where both "student" and "teacher" learned from each other?


SV - Zen Buddhism is a practice that addresses the human condition of suffering. It is not a philosophy. Even if you get answers to your questions that satisfy you, they are of no use.

Those coming to this practice purely through intellectual enquiry do not last. Learn Zazen, sit Zazen - every day until the questions in your head dissolve to nothing. This is Zen.

As I see it

m
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Re: eight winds...

Postby fukasetsu on Mon May 19, 2014 12:17 pm

Smoky_Visions wrote:Was there ever an absolute authority, a Zen master, a teacher of life, and his humble, conforming disciple? Wasn't it all just an illusion, a net through which reality just slipped like water and where both "student" and "teacher" learned from each other?


The view of someone in the high seat (man of god/enlightened teacher) and the minions/unenlightened is a myth, and if taken as real can be pretty destructive. Nevertheless there will always be provisional levels of understanding, experience etc.
One who has awakened to the fact that there are no individuals but merely biological vehicles with the same message of "I am" will no longer have the desire to either assert or deny such roles, for there will be no identification to the form, in fact each and one of us is both the teacher and student. One day humanity/community/sangha should evolve to such maturity, all sitting in a circle instead of someone special sitting in a chair authorized as teacher, talking to students. We are evolving collectively, and the old way cant serve us the way it used to, this change will be spontaneously, this too is the selfless dharma, clinging to culture and tradition is human foolishness, there can never be a personal agenda in this.

“Leave alone whatever arise in the mind. Do not seek to change or alter anything. It is all perfect as it stands.”
~Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Smoky_Visions on Mon May 19, 2014 3:53 pm

fukasetsu wrote:
Smoky_Visions wrote:Was there ever an absolute authority, a Zen master, a teacher of life, and his humble, conforming disciple? Wasn't it all just an illusion, a net through which reality just slipped like water and where both "student" and "teacher" learned from each other?


The view of someone in the high seat (man of god/enlightened teacher) and the minions/unenlightened is a myth, and if taken as real can be pretty destructive. Nevertheless there will always be provisional levels of understanding, experience etc.
One who has awakened to the fact that there are no individuals but merely biological vehicles with the same message of "I am" will no longer have the desire to either assert or deny such roles, for there will be no identification to the form, in fact each and one of us is both the teacher and student. One day humanity/community/sangha should evolve to such maturity, all sitting in a circle instead of someone special sitting in a chair authorized as teacher, talking to students. We are evolving collectively, and the old way cant serve us the way it used to, this change will be spontaneously, this too is the selfless dharma, clinging to culture and tradition is human foolishness, there can never be a personal agenda in this.

“Leave alone whatever arise in the mind. Do not seek to change or alter anything. It is all perfect as it stands.”
~Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche


I understand exactly what you mean, in fact, you just more or less expressed the extra thoughts I had about what I had written, but which I had chosen to keep for myself (for the time being) because I like to keep it brief.

Every now and then a breadcrum of information, not a word too much yet enough, not only to convey content but also style, that's how I talk. It takes more time, but I don't feel as though I am talking in a race against the clock. On the contrary, I like to take my time so I can savour the little things.

On the basis of what you said I somehow detected a way in which my previous comments could easily have been misunderstood. The questions I asked were genuine inquiries into how that person would react to such questions. I do not want to prove a point to him, I do not want to change his point of view, I'd rather like to have an insight into his point of view without interfering.

I hope that might've cleared things up. :)
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Guo Gu on Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:51 pm

fuki, what's flowing in the netherlands these days?
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Chrisd on Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:08 pm

Am afraid fuki has gone up in the Absolute!
Hope he'll come back :p:

Flower for him wherever he may be :daisy:
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Avisitor on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:51 pm

Well, the eight winds blow and my mind raises more questions.
Questions about death. Death of family and friends. Recent deaths.
Cancer being the cause of these deaths.
How in other religions, these people are waiting for us to join them in the afterlife?? Joyous!!
How in Buddhism, these people weren't real but aggregates of the lives they lived?? What??

I have wondered whether a teacher just explains the situation and gives out the answers??
Or, do the teachers really give hints and guides the student along the right path???
Maybe it is a process that contains both??

Nothing but questions ... disturb me ... rile my emotions ...
Wishing so much to be able to stop their disease, to cure them and have them live.
Am I angry and don't know it??
So, getting a teacher now will then give me answers??
Will it put an end to emotional roller coaster??

No, No, No ... stop. Enough of this ... please.
I can't keep this out of my head.
I need to sit and be quiet.
Eight winds blow and I need to find the center of it all.


Edit: Here is my disclaimer ....
Please do not take this in the wrong way.
There is no attack. There is no anger at anyone.
It is just a rant that comes from the disturbance of the eight winds in my life.
Don't take any of this personally.
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Guo Gu on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:28 pm

Chrisd wrote:Am afraid fuki has gone up in the Absolute!
Hope he'll come back :p:

Flower for him wherever he may be :daisy:


flowers won't reach him.
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Guo Gu on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:46 pm

Avisitor wrote:Well, the eight winds blow and my mind raises more questions.
Questions about death. Death of family and friends. Recent deaths.
Cancer being the cause of these deaths.
How in other religions, these people are waiting for us to join them in the afterlife?? Joyous!!
How in Buddhism, these people weren't real but aggregates of the lives they lived?? What??

I have wondered whether a teacher just explains the situation and gives out the answers??
Or, do the teachers really give hints and guides the student along the right path???
Maybe it is a process that contains both??

Nothing but questions ... disturb me ... rile my emotions ...
Wishing so much to be able to stop their disease, to cure them and have them live.
Am I angry and don't know it??
So, getting a teacher now will then give me answers??
Will it put an end to emotional roller coaster??

No, No, No ... stop. Enough of this ... please.
I can't keep this out of my head.
I need to sit and be quiet.
Eight winds blow and I need to find the center of it all.


Edit: Here is my disclaimer ....
Please do not take this in the wrong way.
There is no attack. There is no anger at anyone.
It is just a rant that comes from the disturbance of the eight winds in my life.
Don't take any of this personally.


in life there's death
in death life already is there
but when death is death
and life is life
there would be no joining with loved ones after death

teaching occurs
when the answer is ready
as for guidance,
it happens when the student is ready

when there's self and others
there is no curing, just pain
the eight winds always blow
in absence of wisdom and compassion

in emptiness,
there is joy and tear
never separate
nothing lost
no center and peripheral
compassion without end

be well,
guo gu
Founder and teacher of Tallahassee Chan Center of the Dharma Drum Lineage of Chan Buddhism
http://www.tallahasseechan.org/
Received inka from Master Sheng Yen (1930-2009) in 1995
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Re: eight winds...

Postby Avisitor on Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:55 pm

Thanks for the reply, Guo Gu
I am sad that the person died (from Cancer).
And I couldn't stop thinking about her.
The storm is passing, now.
Another change may be on its way.
Disclaimer: There is no intent to be offensive in my posts. None was intended and none should be interpreted as such.
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Re: eight winds...

Postby fukasetsu on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:27 pm

Guo Gu wrote:fuki, what's flowing in the netherlands these days?


The 'drunk' reply: Whatever thoughts arise as to the meaning of it all, that is just more stuff for the garbage disposal. On the other hand, should I bother to ponder the phenomenal world, I eventually catch myself and discard the results. The less dwelling the better.

The 'plain' reply: hanging fine as usual, Brother, how about yourself?


@Chris: Thanks for the flowers, today some-one thought it was OK to hit and kick my mother, so within this manifest (dual reactivity) world, I very much appreciate flowers instead of violence. (which are flowers too, but try to explain that to mom) :heya:
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